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Pastimes : WHY?? Littleton Colorado -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Mr. Rhino who wrote (16)	4/21/1999 5:59:00 PM
From: TraderAlan	Respond to of 368

MR, <And corporations have designed the modern suburbs> Court-enforced school busing designed the edge cities, like the Denver Tech Center, not corporations. Alan

To: Mr. Rhino who wrote (16)	4/21/1999 7:07:00 PM
From: DenverTechie	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 368

Rhino, I think you're on to something there. I also grew up in one of these middle class suburbs that was the same as everywhere else. And the pressure to conform was brutal as you state. But being of a technical nature, I didn't always "fit in" in the popular way. It was hard, but I coped. But the difference is, the last thing on my mind -- it never even crossed my mind -- was to kill someone, let alone go on a shooting rampage over it. But when you mix in availability to firearms and Internet access on how to build bombs, and media culture of violence as video game, maybe that could do it. There's something about that anytown theory that makes sense. I don't know if I blame corporations for it, though. That makes it another scapegoat. It has to come down to personal responsibility, I think. And strength of character, instilled over years by a strong family unit, should transcend the need to kill because you have been brutalized for being different. It has been a difficult day. In some ways, harder even than yesterday.

To: Mr. Rhino who wrote (16)	4/22/1999
From: Bill on the Hill	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 368

Listen to this small voice inside........ One of the children that was in the school called a radio station in Denver today so she could talk about it. The DJ asked, " You were there " Young girl, " Yes " DJ, " Did you see anyone die " Young girl, " Yes " DJ, " Who picked you up at school? " Young girl, " My mom and dad. " DJ, " Are they there? " Young girl, " No " DJ, " Where are they " Young girl, " My mom said they had to work and told me to stay at home " DJ, " Are you alone " Young girl, " No, my mom told me to watch my brother " Don't you hear the little voice telling you what is wrong????

To: Mr. Rhino who wrote (16)	4/22/1999 3:43:00 PM
From: Gordon A. Langston	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 368

Mr. Rhino You have it right. You were socialized by adults, males, your father and his friends. I can't comment on what your wife went through, but with a poor environment the socialization process becomes even more critical. There is an article in Salon magazine, written by a graduate of Columbine High, that might be interesting to read. You can access it at Yahoo and checking the many recent articles on the incident. My father didn't socialize me but others in the communities I lived in did and I have them to thank for not feeling like an outsider. It was a little late for my older brother. He lives at the edge of society. Gordon

To: Mr. Rhino who wrote (16)	4/22/1999 6:14:00 PM
From: George the Greek	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 368

Just more musings: Mr. Rhino gave a pretty fair rationale for how homogenized America lacks community identity, and this in itself can be somewhat or very alienating. I grew up in Queens (NYC), and, though New York City is big, I read a wonderful eloquent description of it due to Charles Kuralt (who gave us some really fine descriptions of slices of life in America), that the City is composed of many neighborhoods, many towns, the only thing differentiating it from other towns being that there are no cornfields between them. So NYC has this fierce sense of belonging, at least amongst those native to certain neighborhoods. Some parts of the country have it more than others. Some lack it more than others. The homogenization factor, at work since the '50s by my recollection, with rampant franchisees, seems a Big Negative. But I agree with other folks who say that the responsibility lies with those kids. The responsibility is theirs. Symptom of a sick country. I don't blame the media explicitly - as an aside, it sometimes really annoys me to hear the wailing over this is, or Oklahoma City, or whatever, which, though closer to home, seems far, far, far out of proportion to the miseries visited upon East Timor, Tibet, Rwanda, Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo, and many others. When I hear of these tragedies visited upon us by students, it always seems that there is some Marilyn Manson death mentality thing going on in their clique that's incredibly influential, comes to dominate them beyond any connection with family, community, school. George

To: Mr. Rhino who wrote (16)	4/25/1999 9:37:00 PM
From: Mike 2.0	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 368

Mr. Rhino: belated kudos to you for an excellent post. Amid the flotsam on this thread there has been some excellent discussion of this horrendous tragedy and your point that modern suburbia offers nothing for kids to feel part of, feel attached to, or feel a sense of community & belonging is very well taken. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Amid such a backdrop, hazing indeed becomes all the more likely and unbearable. This signals another key issue many have discussed thoughtfully: lack of true "family" interaction as we know it. The parents of these kids had NO idea what was going on. Even neighbors sensed something was going on. Finally, IMO another piece was the apparent absence of religion in all this. These two kids clearly had no chruch/religion-based support system to fall back on either. Instead of being able to find comfort in a God/church community amid reportedly severe school hazing, they found it instead in the writings of Hitler. Wilfully isolated at this point, their desire for revenge so consumed them even their own lives no longer mattered. End result, a horrendous atrocity. Thanks again for your post.