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Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: O'Hara who wrote (25378)	5/10/1999 12:29:00 PM
From: Don Martini	Respond to of 39621

Dear Shalom, you wrote: "I do not intend to debate any of these truths. My intentions are as originally stated, this info was provided to you as merely a means of information. ... I went out on a limb only for the sake of Christ." That's the best "sake," Shalom, I doubt you're on a limb. A thousand times I've encountered "I'm saved, you're damned, there's no purpose in my wasting my valuable time arguing with you." Wrote Paul: the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves ... preach the word: be urgent in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering ... do the work of an evangelist 2Tim 2:24-4:2 Did I post before under "a different alias?" I employ no alias. Last summer I was on this thread and ceased posting when I wearied from the vituperation here. Shouldn't have, as I had a dialog with Andretti, a sincere man respectful of honest conviction who believes much as do you. I'm remiss and hope to resume that congenial scriptural discussion. Thanks for numbering the points Shalom. I'll deal with some now: 2: Does Jesus have a God? Scripture says so 8 times: I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God ... I shall write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name. I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ He shall cry unto me, Thou art my Father, My God Rev 3:12 John 20:17 Eph 1:3 Psalm 89:26 2Cor 1:3 1 Cor 15:28 demonstrates Jesus shall ever be subject to Jehovah: And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all. 3. For clarity please tell me what happens to planet Earth? 5. House to house preaching. I'm unsure if your answer was yes or no? 7. Titles: We agree, and give no flattering titles. [Job 32:21-2 Ps 111:9] 7. Paying preachers: You evaded, I didn't ask if you tithe, Shalom. You received free, give free Matt 10:8 You ought to imitate us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; neither did we eat bread for nought at any man's hand, but in labor and travil, working night and day, that we might not burden any of you ...For even when we were with you thes we commanded you, If any will not work, neither let him eat ... And if any man obeyeth not our word by this epistle, not that man, that ye have no company with him, to the end that he may be ashamed. 2 Thess 3:7-14 If Jesus didn't charge for his miracles what man may charge you for telling you bout them? If all preachers salaries were cancelled on June 1, how many would still be preaching July 1? [6,000,000+ JWs would continue unaffected] I like your quotation of Proverb 25:2, Shalom. May Jehovah find pleasure as we seek Him in Spirit and Truth. Don Martini

To: O'Hara who wrote (25378)	5/10/1999 8:25:00 PM
From: Elmer Flugum	Respond to of 39621

Hello shalom, See this one? : Group in Africa Has Jewish Roots, DNA Indicates nytimes.com

To: O'Hara who wrote (25378)	5/15/1999 9:56:00 PM
From: Barnabus	Respond to of 39621

A Bird and its nest- On our front porch, under the eaves, a small bird has built a sturdy nest. She carefully brought on material day after day. She etched a fine oval nest and the day finally came that she laid some eggs. Every day I go out that door several times. Mama bird looks me in the eye as I start to walk by, barely two feet from her -- finally she flies away and lands nearby, watching carefully towards her nest to make certain that I do not bother it. This ritual goes on day after day after day. Now numbering perhaps a hundred times. But Mama bird is relentless in her WATCHFULNESS and FAITHFULNESS. She is neither careless, nor haphazard in her maternal instincts. She is doing EVERYTHING SHE CAN to make sure her eggs hatch and that her young have an opportunity to make it in her world. Let us learn from her. WATCHFULNESS is a quality that we could all learn. Even though she didn't build in a "choice" location, she is still doing all she can within her wisdom and power to see that her children survive and are healthy. FAITHFULNESS is another quality. She hasn't abandoned them, even though she may feel uncomfortable about the "closeness" of the human that goes by several times a day. "The hairs of our head are numbered, and not a bird falls, but what God is aware of it." Scripture May God bless this fine Mama Bird. And may her children be greatly blessed as well. How fortunate to be a lowly bird, and still be known and loved by God. OMB

To: O'Hara who wrote (25378)	5/31/1999 6:42:00 PM
From: Don Martini	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 39621

Shalom, you wrote: "Your understanding of Isa 65 is thoroughly flawed and therefore the premise of your question is without merit." I read your posts often. Its clear you have strong convictions, from the time you take to present them. But bluntness is not substitute for scriptural reasons; just the old technique: Declare a Victory & Withdraw. The Lord's servant must be gentle towards all, apt to teach , forbearing, in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth ... Sanctify in your hearts Christ as Lord, being ready always to give answer to every man that asketh you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, yet with meekness and fear 2 Tim 2:24 1 Pet 3:15 ASV1901 If one claims to have Christ in his heart is not kind and tactful he's insubordinate to Jesus. speak evil of no man, not to be contentious, to be gentle, showing all meekness toward all men ... a fractious man after a first and second admonition refuse, knowing that such a one is perverted, and sinneth, being self-condemned. Titus 3 ASV A tactful tongue considerate of others with sincerely held convictions no matter how different they be, is basic to the Christian ministry. I've received insults from ones on this thread who say, for example, my words are "satined up with butter," etc. Master said: Be wise as serpents, harmless as doves. Let your love be without hypocrisy ... In brotherly love have tender affection for one another. In showing honor to one another take the lead. Do not loiter at your business. Be aglow with the spirit. Rom 12:9-11 NWT If I show honor to you, I can't claim the higher ground, boast of my correctness and insinuate you're unenlightened, insincere or deficient in some way. Nor can you. The word Devil means "accuser." Neither of us should do his work. Now Shalom, I wish to resume our unfinished discussion on three interlocking questions I asked Robert Hall on #25360, which you answered on #25379: 3. Explain the New Heavens & New Earth 4. Do all the saved go to heaven? 6. Who are the children and sinners that die in the New Earth? Please see my next post, Shalom. Thank You! Don Martini

To: O'Hara who wrote (25378)	6/1/1999 10:48:00 AM
From: Don Martini	Respond to of 39621

Good Morning, Shalom! Even Jesus: whom the heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things whereof God spake by the mouth of his prophets of old At Pentacost Peter confirmed the inevitable fulfillment of ALL Jehovah's promises, as Jesus said: Sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one particle of a letter to pass away from the Law by any means and not all things take place Acts 3:21 Mat 5:17 What did God promise for Planet Earth? ..The earth abideth for ever Ecc 1:4 Shall be filled with knowledge of Jehovah as the waters cover the sea Isa 11:9 The desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose Isa 35 Earth is my footstool ...I shall make the place of my feet Glorious Isa 66:1, 60:13 The meek shall inherit the earth Ps 37:9, 11, 22, 29, 34 Mt 5:5 How will this be accomplished? The God of heaven [shall] set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall the sovereignty thereof be left to another people; but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Dan 2:44 The righteous shall never be removed, but the wicked shall not dwell in the land Pr 10:30 Shalom, you wrote of "new heaven age and new earth age" and said there are 3 of them, we're in the second. Let's work with your definition and 2 Pet 3 which you cited: 3:5&6 "there were heavens...and an earth...the world that then was being overflowed with water perished" 3:7 the heavens that now are are, and the earth, are stored up for fire 3:13 We look for new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness When the first heavens & earth passed away the universe and Earth remained; the terms were not literal. Often Bible speaks of humans or civilization as "Earth" [Gen 11:1 Ps 96:1 1 Ki 10:24] The flood destroyed the preflood human civilization, or "earth." But a "heavens" also passed away? No more could demons assume human form and marry, as preflood, producing a race of giants. [Genesis 6:1-4] Righteous angels retain this power and often appeared in human form. The heavens passed away in the sense that limitations were placed on Satan's crew. At Armageddon the kings of the Earth and their armies perish, then Satan is abyssed for 1,000 years, ending this present heavens & earth. [Isa 24:1-6 Jer 25:33 Rev 20] The New Heavens & New Earth are Christ and his Bride reigning over Earth, duplicating planet-wide the miracles of His ministry. "He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither mourning, nor crying, nor pain any more; the first things are passed away...behold I make all things new" Rev 21 This achieves restoration of all things whereof God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets Obviously those receiving life in the New Earth are not the Bride. They're the meek which shall inherit the Earth. Three "Ages" = 3 "Worlds" = 3 sets Heavens & Earth. Our planet and mankind survive the coming destruction [Isa 13:11-12] This makes salvation by Christ possible for the world to come. [1 John 2:2 Heb 2:5] Best wishes in Christ, Shalom! Don Martini

To: O'Hara who wrote (25378)	6/2/1999 10:11:00 PM
From: Don Martini	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 39621

Hello, Shalom! Q. #4 was: Do all the saved go to heaven? You responded: Whosoever was not found written in the book ... was cast into the lake of fire Revelation names 6 things destined to the Lake of Fire: 1. The wild beast [7 heads, 10 horns] Rev 19:20 2. The false prophet [made men worship the beast] 19:20 3. Death 20:14 4. Hell [Hades] 20:4 5. Wicked humans 21:8 [same as 20:15] 6. Devil 20:10 Twice the Lake is identified as "The second Death." 20:14 & 21:8 If the Lake of Fire symbolizes conscious torment, how do you torture Death, Hell, and a symbolic 7 headed monster? However all six could be destroyed forever, annihilated. But 20:10 reads: The Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever NWT This is similar to 14:10: he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest.NWT A literal interpretation of these passages has these difficulties: In Isaiah 34:8 Jehovah sentenced Edom: The streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever; from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever. ASV1901 Edom does not burn today. Explorers visit Bozrah and Petra regularly. However the Edomite people disappeared in prechristian times, as it were, burned off the map. These descendants of Esau left no written records, but their history of hostility toward Israel is detailed in the Bible, so the "smoke", evidence, rises to this day. A similar prophecy is at Isa 66:22: As the new heavens and the new earth which I will make shall remain before me, saith Jehovah, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith Jehovah. And they shall go forth and look upon the dead bodies of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. [Note: in the New Earth all flesh shall worship Jah. FLESH! This means all the saved shall not be in heaven, as the Earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the Glory of Jehovah as the waters cover the sea Hab 2:14, Isa 11:9, Jer 32:34 ASV1901] Isa 66 presents an unpleasant picture: Millions of unconsumed dead bodies cover the earth and worshippers go out to abhor them burning and being eaten by flameproof worms. Similarly John the baptizer prophesied Jesus would gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire In none of these cases is the fire literal, simply a figure of extinction, which 2 Thess 1:9 makes clear: The revelation of our Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of his power in flaming fire, rendering vengeance to them that know not God and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus: who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might. So the question, what eventuates to the damned? Torment in the sight of the Lamb or Eternal Destruction away from His face? The answer: which passage is in a context of symbols? Since scripture teaches "The dead know not anything" and the wicked "Shall be as though they had not been" and tells us 100 times that the soul DIES, which is the wages of sin, torment after death is impossible. Ecc 9:5 & 10 Obadiah 16 Isa 26:14 Please reflect prayerfully on these texts, Shalom. Thank You! Don Martini