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To: Ilaine who wrote (26588)	5/30/1999 12:01:00 PM
From: melinda abplanalp	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 71178

Thanks EOM

To: Ilaine who wrote (26588)	5/30/1999 6:33:00 PM
From: nihil	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 71178

Greeks, such as Plutarch, wrote about Carthaginians -- such as Hannibal.

To: Ilaine who wrote (26588)	5/30/1999 6:42:00 PM
From: nihil	Respond to of 71178

All history is a history of class warfare, according to Marx and Engels. Some class warfare was between one ethnic group and another, but often the classes at war with each other were of the same tribe. The class war in Athens and in Rome were of this type, and the brutality of urban class warfare throughout history played a major role in development of the modern state and political and economic systems. It was common for the rebellious commoners to execute or exile the aristocrats, and the aristocrats to hold or regain their power happily to execute mobs of commoners.

To: Ilaine who wrote (26588)	5/30/1999 9:35:00 PM
From: PCModem	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 71178

"And you rightly point out that from time to time and place to place, societies have functioned for a long time without being what we would call ethical." Hi, I'm kinda new as a member and have not followed this entire discussion, so please forgive this intrusion (if it is one). I don't think societies can function at all without having ethics and being ethical. We may not agree with other societies ethical values, but a society without ethical values is chaotic and no longer a society at all. We may not recognize or appreciate or agree with another society's ethical values, but if it is a society, it has them. It is part of the definition. Imposing our value systems on other societies as a measure of "what we would call ethical" does not lead to understanding of that society. (I realize I may have misunderstood the above quote and that you may be saying the same thing as I am -- that we don't "call" it ethical because we don't agree with them about what they consider to be ethical behavior.) Then there's the whole aspect of perspective, and justification. People who are not insane do things that may appear insane from another's perspective. Until the justification for the action is given, then the light goes on. I can understand (not condone barbarous actions, but comprehend the reasoning concerning) how a people might think that another people, with different values and different language and different religion, should live in their own country, which happens to be next door. I can sympathize because I live in a part of the U.S. that is increasingly less English speaking. I'm proud of the fact that we are big enough to absorb others who are not like us. But I can understand how it feels to not feel at home in one's own home town. PCM

To: Ilaine who wrote (26588)	5/31/1999 5:18:00 AM
From: JF Quinnelly	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 71178

And you rightly point out that from time to time and place to place, societies have functioned for a long time without being what we would call ethical. My point is, that using your own definition of ethics being "what works for a particular society", you have provided no way to judge these societies from the outside. Your own definition makes no room for "meta-ethics", a standard for judging all ethical systems. Pragmatism is like that. Carthage was the western outpost of Phoenician culture which predated the Romans, was spread throughout the Mediterranean and lasted a very long time. I'm sure they were literate. I don't think there's any shortage of material for historians.