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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: PROLIFE who wrote (40899)6/19/1999 12:52:00 PM
From: jbe  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 108807
 
Dan, just to let you know that I will answer, but perhaps not today. I have guests arriving in an hour. Okay?

jbe



To: PROLIFE who wrote (40899)6/19/1999 7:05:00 PM
From: Ilaine  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 108807
 
I'd be happy to take on the task of assigning religious philosophies to Founding Fathers, if we can agree on who the Founding Fathers were.

Right off the top of my head, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Paine were deists. I'll check the rest. A semi-agreed list of Founding Fathers would be helpful. Suggestions, anyone?



To: PROLIFE who wrote (40899)6/19/1999 7:26:00 PM
From: Ilaine  Respond to of 108807
 
Let's see, so far I've got Washington, John Adams, Jefferson, as well as Franklin and Tom Paine listed as deists. The source for the first three presidents is the Encyclopedia Brittanica. The problem that you have is that Unitarianism was a popular sect among the rich in the 18th century.

And in favor of separation of church and state, here's Madison:

>>>>>James Madison, the "Father of the Constitution," was present for the entire 1787 constitutional convention which drafted and adopted Art.6, Sec.3, and was cochairman of the 1789 Joint Senate-House Conference Committee which drafted and adopted the religion clauses of the First Amendment--both wordings were approved by Congress and the states. This is what James Madison said about the Constitution's only provisions respecting religion: "Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachments by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history" (William and Mary Quarterly, 1946, 3:555)<<<<<



To: PROLIFE who wrote (40899)6/19/1999 7:35:00 PM
From: Ilaine  Respond to of 108807
 
American founded on the principles of Christianity? Ho, ho, ho - here's John Adams:

In his "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" [1787-1788], John Adams wrote:

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.

". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."




To: PROLIFE who wrote (40899)6/19/1999 7:42:00 PM
From: Ilaine  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 108807
 
Here is an excerpt from a treaty ratified by congress and signed by Madison stating specifically that America was "not in any sense founded on the Christian religion":

earlyamerica.com

>>>>>Treaty of Tripoli
Unlike governments of the past, the American Fathers set up a government divorced from religion. The establishment of a secular government did not require a reflection to themselves about its origin; they knew this as an unspoken given. However, as the U.S. delved into international affairs, few foreign nations knew about the intentions of America. For this reason, an insight from at a little known but legal document written in the late 1700s explicitly reveals the secular nature of the United States to a foreign nation. Officially called the "Treaty of peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary," most refer to it as simply the Treaty of Tripoli. In Article 11, it states:
"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
The preliminary treaty began with a signing on 4 November, 1796 (the end of George Washington's last term as president). Joel Barlow, the American diplomat served as counsel to Algiers and held responsibility for the treaty negotiations. Barlow had once served under Washington as a chaplain in the revolutionary army. He became good friends with Paine, Jefferson, and read Enlightenment literature. Later he abandoned Christian orthodoxy for rationalism and became an advocate of secular government. Barlow, along with his associate, Captain Richard O'Brien, et al, translated and modified the Arabic version of the treaty into English. From this came the added Amendment 11. Barlow forwarded the treaty to U.S. legislators for approval in 1797. Timothy Pickering, the secretary of state, endorsed it and John Adams concurred (now during his presidency), sending the document on to the Senate. The Senate approved the treaty on June 7, 1797, and officially ratified by the Senate with John Adams signature on 10 June, 1797. All during this multi-review process, the wording of Article 11 never raised the slightest concern. The treaty even became public through its publication in The Philadelphia Gazette on 17 June 1997.<<<<<



To: PROLIFE who wrote (40899)6/19/1999 7:48:00 PM
From: Grainne  Respond to of 108807
 
Okay, how much proof do you need that many of the Founding Fathers were Deists? I think there is now conclusive evidence, really. Do you agree?



To: PROLIFE who wrote (40899)6/19/1999 9:34:00 PM
From: Ilaine  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 108807
 
Wow! Until now, I had been unaware that there were so many people arguing over the issue of whether this country was founded as a Christian nation or not. The debate is hot! The viewpoints are all over the place! Predictably, those who oppose each other's viewpoint quote the Founding Fathers in support of completely antithetical views. Amusingly, and confusingly, some Christians say one thing, and some Christians say another.

This first citation is from a Southern Baptist theologist who rejects the idea that America was founded as a Christian nation.

theology.edu

These same folks oppose making our government Christian, because government is worldly, and the Church is not of this world. These folks are Southern Baptists, at Quartz Hill School of Theology located in Quartz Hill, California.

theology.edu

And here these same Southern Baptists debunk David Barton's "Our Godly Heritage."

erols.com

The Freemasons, on the other hand, believe the Founding Fathers were Freemasons:

bgw.net

And here are some more links, quoting our Founding Fathers in support of both sides of the question:

geocities.com

ios.org

fp.bio.utk.edu

high-concepts.com

azstarnet.com

dimensional.com

postfun.com

swinggirl.com

allanturner.com




To: PROLIFE who wrote (40899)6/22/1999 1:08:00 PM
From: jbe  Read Replies (6) | Respond to of 108807
 
Once again: Deism & the Founding Fathers (Part One)

Dan, I finally have the time to begin to respond to your request that I "prove" the following statement:

Many -- perhaps even most -- of the Founding Fathers were deists, not theists.

You have already received some responses to this question. CobaltBlue, in particular, provided a slew of URLs, so that there is no need to repeat what she has already done. I will therefore limit myself to filling in some background and plugging a few gaps.

First, I have to admit that I probably should not have made such a categorical statement. That is, I should perhaps have qualified it as follows: "The consensus among scholars is that many -- perhaps even most -- of the Founding Fathers were deists, not theists."

The problem is, of course, that where some of the most notable Founding Fathers are concerned, the evidence is ambiguous. That is true, specifically, of Madison and Washington. (I personally would classify Madison as a believing Christian, but as one who absolutely opposed establishing Christianity as an official religion, and who insisted on the necessity of separating Church and State. Washington, on the other hand, I would place in the deist camp, despite his formal church membership.)

As for the more obscure Founding Fathers-Constitutional Convention attendees, the ones that left less of a written record behind them, it would take me many months (perhaps years!) to collect the kind of proof you insist on. Hence I am limited to citing some indirect evidence.

The Intellectual Background

First of all, the Founding Fathers were unusually well-educated (if self-educated, for the most part), and conversant with the major intellectual trends of the day.

The 18th century was dominated by the Enlightenment, that is, The Age of Reason, the Age of the Philosophers (in the sense of Men of Letters). As Carl Becker (The Heavenly City of the Eighteenth-Century Philosophers) puts it:

The philosophical empire was an international domain of which France was but the mother country and Paris the capital. Go where you like -- England, Holland, Italy, Spain, America -- everywhere you meet them, Philosophers speaking the same language, sustained by the same climate of opinion.

One of the characteristics of Enlightenment thought was the practically universal belief in the rationality and beneficence of Nature (this was before Romanticism and before Darwinism, you will remember). The God of the Enlightenment was the God of Nature. The deistic view, in short, was that since Nature seemed to work according to certain fixed principles, an Intelligent Being was responsible for setting them up in the first place. God's Natural Law guided all mankind, not just the communicants of a particular religion. Here is Voltaire's definition of Natural Law, for example:

The regular and constant order of facts by which God rules the universe; the order which his wisdom presents to the sense and reason of men, to serve them as an equal and common rule of conduct, and to guide them, without distinction of race and sect, towards perfection and happiness. Becker, ibid.

The following passage from the Declaration of Independence is fully in that spirit:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights...


At the same time, anything that appeared to violate the Laws of Nature (e.g., miracles, the Incarnation, special divine revelations) were rejected; most sectarian beliefs were dismissed as "superstitions"; and Established Churches were regarded as oppressive, cruel, and tyrannous (vide Voltaire's "Ecrasez l'infame").

Yet Interestingly enough, it was common to see some "utility" in any kind of religious belief, for its role in "upholding morality"; as Voltaire (I think) put it, "false religion is superior to no religion at all." (It should be remembered, in this connection, that in many countries at the time, most notably France, professing atheism was a crime.)

As for Christianity in particular, the Deist view can be summarized more or less as follows:

Deists hold Jesus to be "divine" only in that he was divinely inspired (as could we all be) to empathic, rational thought, and Deism rejects the deity of Jesus, the trinity, the testimony of Jesus' miracles and the resurrection. You will find Deists expressing their love of "Primitive Christianity", which in their eyes, was derived from the original words of Jesus (eg: Sermon on the Mount), which (Deists believe) existed before the record of false miracles, and also the false doctrines of Paul, were grafted onto Christianity. While they express great admiration for Jesus, they in no way worship him.

geneva.rutgers.edu

One more point I think is relevant. The following, I think, explains why the Founding Fathers, whatever their personal religious beliefs, were generally so opposed to making Christianity the "official" religion of the United States. It also helps explain Madison's famous remark to the effect that once you establish Christianity as the official religion, there is nothing to prevent you from making some sub-sect of Christianity the official religion.

The early American colonies had all of the trappings of feudal
theocracies; each colony had, in effect, an established and tax-funded church of the Christian religion. 34 In Virginia, there were laws which provided the death penalty for speaking against the tenets of the Christian faith.Delaware prohibited anyone who was not a believer in "Trinitarian Christianity" from holding a public office. South Carolina officially declared "the Christian protestant" form of belief to be "the established religion of the State", adding: "That God is publicly to be worshipped" and "That the Christian Religion is the true religion." 35


atheists.org

But in the revolutionary period, the crusade for religious toleration (and it was a crusade, conducted against determined opposition) finally bore fruit, and was apparently accompanied by a sharp decline in church affiliation (from the same source):

....Revolutionary America was a period of official disestablishment of the assorted state religions. 36 Virginia enacted a Declaration of Rights on June 12, 1776, which provided for "free exercise of religion", and not favoring any one religious sect. That same year, religions were disestablished in Delaware, New Jersey and Pennsylvania; in 1777, New York, Georgia and North Carolina followed suit. Local and state laws against theatre were repealed, along with censorship laws as well — all to the consternation of ministers throughout the country. 37

All of this—the collapse of traditional puritan institutions, and the dis-establishment of religious bodies — created a wide-spread neurosis and anxiety throughout religious groups. Worse still for the churches, out of some 4 million persons living in America in 1790, religious groups could claim only about 5% on their scanty membership rolls.


Here are a couple of URLs for summaries of Deism in general:

deism.com
religioustolerance.org

BTW, I learned something new, which is that both the motto "In God We Trust" and the words "one nation under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance were introduced in the 20th century.

While "In God We Trust" was commissioned by Lincoln to be placed on our coins as a way to unite the nation during a bloody and vicious Civil War, it was never intended to replace our national motto. Our original (correct) motto was, "E Pluribus Unum" (Out of Many Comes One), but the Eisenhower administration in the 1950's, trying to make greater the gulf between the "good" religious Americans and the "bad" atheist Communists, enacted a law to change the motto and add the clause regarding God into the Pledge of Allegiance.

high-concepts.com

TO BE CONTINUED -- if you can stand it. <gg>

jbe