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Politics : PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: rich4eagle who wrote (5646)9/21/1999 6:09:00 PM
From: rich4eagle  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 769667
 
wow, great post



To: rich4eagle who wrote (5646)9/21/1999 6:38:00 PM
From: Lizzie Tudor  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 769667
 
Wow! Great postý!!!



To: rich4eagle who wrote (5646)9/21/1999 7:35:00 PM
From: A. Borealis  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 769667
 
Great Post!! Most of the crowd here seem to be dumbfounded when someone tells it like it really is.

Boralis



To: rich4eagle who wrote (5646)9/22/1999 12:29:00 AM
From: Neocon  Read Replies (5) | Respond to of 769667
 
The Soviet economy was not near collapse, but it couldn't keep up with our commitment to increasing military spending and funding research and development, especially the Strategic Defense Initiative. With military spending at about 25% of Soviet GNP, increasing consumer unrest, and the explosion of the black market, reformers were able to gain control of the government, in an effort to lull the West into complacency, and to resuscitate the economy. However, as glasnost shattered the last bits of Soviet legitimacy, and perestroika proved to be too little, too late, the system began to crumble. Gorbachev mainly survived because of his relative success in dealing with Reagan, but eventually the Politburo sought his removal, and it was the Russian people, most especially the people of Moscow, who supported Yeltsin who brought the system crashing down.

As for President Bush not "finishing" Desert Storm, there was no way to preserve the coalition should we attack Baghdad, and there was no public support for a long term occupation. With Shi'ites and Kurds looking for an opportunity to separate, Iran waiting to take advantage of the situation, and Turkey adamant that it would not put up with a rump Kurdistan, there was little choice but to pull back, and hope that Saddam was toppled in a coup, which seemed a reasonable scenario, and would have likely occurred had not Saddam behaved swiftly and ruthlessly against members of his family and entourage.

The primary fiscal irresponsibility in the '80s was that of the largely Democratic Congress. Economic activity and tax revenues both increased as a result of tax cuts, but the spending cuts were not there. Besides, the impact of the deficits has been overblown, and many of the predicted effects have not materialized, such drying up the capital markets.

The first issue that Clinton addressed was the attempt to get the military to accept gays, and the big project of the first term was the socialization of one seventh of the economy, i.e. health care. Whatever these actions may be, they are not centrist. Republicans have held his feet to the fire on welfare reform and debt reduction.

You are correct that he hired them, which is to his credit. But they were never meant to have the impact on economic policy that they did, rather, they were means to reassure Wall Street, and it is mainly because other initiatives faltered so badly that they became the leading economic lights of the administration.

Since no one has advocated killing the sick and poor, I will ignore that section. No one has proposed nuking the Chinese, but they have deplored giving them free- reign to steal our technology. Practically everyone across the spectrum except Pat Buchanan and Richard Gephardt supported NAFTA and GATT. Since the Japanese and other "Asian Tiger" economies are still in the dumper, and the European economy is sluggish, I do not know what you are talking about when claiming the he has "done as well" with Japan and other world economies.

I do not propose "putting a religious agenda" into politics. I do propose not shying away from values discourse, and that also means not hiding religion in the attic.

As for the economy, yes, it mostly manages by itself. That is how capitalism works. Macroeconomic policy can affect things, but fortunately, Clinton was not able to do much. The recession lasted for seven months, we were pulling out of it before the election, but mysteriously the figures were not released until after. Given that Democrats were predicting another Great Depression in the '90s, due to the long term effects of Reagan's policies, and given the dearth of achievement of the current administration, it only seems fair to give Reagan the lion's share of the credit for setting the terms in the '80s.

Clinton has degraded military preparedness, and run a largely reactive foreign policy, one that merely puts out brush fires and delays decisions. His adventure in Kosovo was poorly run, and ended up getting about the same deal as Milosevic had offered in the first place. Meanwhile, he damaged relations with Russia and China. I do not know where you get the idea that he has been especially successful with North Korea, we just bribed them for temporary pacification.

By the way, the only reason that Clinton can claim to have reduced government was by the winding down of the military consequent upon the Cold War.

Anyway, the main thing you have to face is that Clinton has been fairly irrelevant to the decade. He got few domestic initiatives through, and many of his so- called foreign triumphs are dubious. For example, the accords on Northern Ireland seem to be falling apart, troops stationed in Bosnia seem to be indefinitely committed, and the KLA is refusing to turn over weapons, and American sponsored loans to Russia seem to have been misappropriated.

Meanwhile Clinton has disgraced his office, and lowered the standards by which we evaluate officeholders. If you do not think that that is very real damage to the country, then you are mistaken.



To: rich4eagle who wrote (5646)9/22/1999 1:34:00 AM
From: Neocon  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 769667
 
Since my first response was reactive, I thought I would try a second response that shifted the terms of discussion a bit. Economically, several things have happened that were unanticipated a mere ten years ago. First, the power of computing has revolutionized the workplace, and increased productivity enormously, as well as generating a whole new sector in need of capital and labor. Second, the challenge of the Asian Tigers faded, as it was revealed that "crony capitalism" had permitted a lot of poorly documented and under- collaterilized loans, and that the chickens were coming home to roost. Third, "Eurosclerosis" began to set in, and even Left wing parties began to realize that they had let their welfare states get out of hand. Republican efforts to keep a lid on taxes, to deregulate, and to hold the line on social welfare and entitlements, helped to stimulate economic activity. With all of these factors, the United States was well positioned to reap rewards in world markets, and the main thing was not to do anything to screw it up. Ineffectuality being the hallmark of this administration, the economy was pretty safe.....Economically, the action is mainly elsewhere than the government.....



To: rich4eagle who wrote (5646)9/22/1999 2:02:00 AM
From: Neocon  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 769667
 
Now, if political effectiveness is measured in one's ability to accomplish one's goals, particularly when the deck is not stacked in one's favor, than Clinton was one of the worst politicians ever to sit in the Oval Office. He was a great campaigner, no doubt, and he and his people are well practiced at "spin", but they spent their first two years largely unable to accomplish anything with even a Democratic Congress. Then the Republicans took over Congress, and most of the legislative initiatives originated with them. Perhaps if we credit a contemporary politician it should be Newt Gingrich.....



To: rich4eagle who wrote (5646)9/22/1999 5:23:00 PM
From: Zoltan!  Respond to of 769667
 
Wow, what a distillation and monument to ignorance. In fact, just about the best parody of invincible ignorance witnessed in a long, long time. A veritable masterpiece of unfounded, wrongheaded drivel.

Thanks for the laughs.



To: rich4eagle who wrote (5646)9/22/1999 6:08:00 PM
From: jlallen  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 769667
 
Neo has already demolished this post but I could not resist adding a few points. In response to poor0turkey's post:


Your quite eloquent post was just that a quite eloquent blind endorsement of a (right) view and an almost total disregard for an objective view.


Your opinion is not supported by any facts as your post indicates.

First off, you give Reagan the credit for ending the cold war, the cold war was ended by the failure of the Russian economy and the good sense of Gorbachev. Reagan blew the the budget into a spiraling deficit by beating a dying horse about to take it's last gasp. The Soviet Union would have died if we had cut the defense budget during the Reagan years. Thus, he mortgaged the future to bury a dying enemy. And George Bush who was a good president, much better than Reagan, blew it by not finishing Desert Storm, and not recognizing we had a recession in 1991. Reagan's fiscal irresponsibility was monumental and unforgivable for it impacted generations to come.

The Russian economy was pushed to collapse by the US military build up sonny. The Democratic Congress "blew the budget" as you say. Do you remember reading about the Reagan budgets being DOA at Capitol Hill? In fact tax revenues increased immensely during the Reagan years and were squandered by a profligate Democrat Congress. The fiscal irreponsibility is squarely at the feet of the Dem. party. Congress alone has the power of the purse strings.

Clinton's agenda was never led by Republican's, rather from the first time I heard him speak 1992, he has been consistent on his view on every subject and has always espoused a pro business centrist view with a genuine democrat concern for the hard working average citizen. This is something that has been sorely lacking in Republican policy for years. Clinton espoused fiscal responsibility, free trade, and health care from the beginning and has maintained that posture.

Clinton consistent? Do you listen only to radio Free White House and CNN (Clinton News Network)? His agenda, including welfare reform, has ALWAYS been defined by Republicans. As is obvious from the impeachment debacle, he has no concern for anyone but himself. Not his wife, not his daughter and more tragically not this country or his office. The man is a disgrace.

It is interesting you give Wall Street the credit for Clinton hiring a democrat(Rubin) and a republican (Greenspan) to steer the economy. HE HIRED THEM NOT WALL STREET, GIVE HIM CREDIT, or be a blind fool. And the economy has hummed along marvelously the last seven years the best in this Century, what a wonderful job, the Clinton administration has done here.

Uh, I believe Greenspan was hired by [edit]Reagan. I'll give him credit for Rubin. He gets no credit for the economy. Credit for the economy lies with the Republican controlled Congress.

You say Clinton is a fake Centrist, I find no evidence of this. Maybe you just want him to be a left winger so you call him a fake. Provide evidence of this not hearsay.

He's a lefty alright. Remember Clintoncare? Gays in the military? How he fought welfare reform then tried to take credit for it?

On the subject of healthcare, we the richest country in the world has one the lousiest health care programs for it's citizens. Clinton has been trying to fix this. Meanwhile, your Republican buds keep killing health care and propping up the right to kill with assault weapons and handguns to insure our murder rate remains the highest in the world. I guess if we kill all the sick and poor we don't need a national health care program. This mindset is stuck on sick.<i/>

If our system sucks so much how come we have people coming here seeking treatment from all over the world? Sorry about the inconvenient Second Amendment to the Constitution. Your best bet there is to try to get enough support to amend it.

The Clinton Administration has managed the economy such that the Reagan budget deficit explosion can be reversed. And Clinton and his directed (Wall Street) economy guys Greenspan, Rubin, and now Summers have been steadfast in trying to use the surplus to pay down debt. Yet, the Republicans seeking votes, for the sake of selling the future want to give away the surplus to fat cats who don't need it at the expense of future generations and those who need help.

Whew! Do you smoke your breakfast. Clearly the Dem Congress' budget deficit has been erased and the budget has been balanced by the Repub. led Congress. Remember Clinton saying it would take 10 years, then 7 , etc. to balance the budget? Remember the boondoggle stimulus package killed by the Repubs? Please take your head out from where the sun don't shine. BTW a tax cut is a pay raise FOR EVERYBODY.

Free Markets, Clinton has been the strongest proponent of free markets of any president we have had ever. He has strongly endorsed NAFTA, and defended it's survival when the Republicans abandoned it during the Mexican crisis. And BTW, the Mexicans paid off the Clinton directed loan (with no support from Dems or Republicans) early for a $500 million profit for the US. Yet, you guys never give him the credit to stand tall, stand alone and win. Clinton has worked hard to open relations with China and promote free trade there, your buds are trying to find a way to NUKE the Chinese, and he has done as well with Japan and other world economies. He has been the greatest promoter of free trade from the White House in American history.

You are incredible. Crowing about opening to China. After they stole every damn nuclear secret we had? After he sold us out to the Chinese for campaign cash? Only someone truly twisted would see merit in those facts.

You also, propose putting a religious agenda into politics. The constitution expressly forbids this, and it was the wisdom of our forefathers to do so. Yet, your buds quote the constitution about the obsolete right to bear arms. Wow what stupidity.

The Second Amendment says what it says buddy. And I don't know any Republican leaders proposing to put a religious agenda into politics as you say whatever the hell that means.

Then you go on to talk about government downsizing like Reagan and Bush did something. Well, the government payroll increased during both the Reagan and Bush Administration. The only Administration that has actually reduced Government in since WWII has been the Clinton Administration.

Reagan and Bush were thwarted by the Dem Congress. The Repub Congress has caused a down size of the federal payroll with Bubba kicking and screaming all the way.

Then you blow off the biggest phenomena off all, the greatest economy of the twentieth century, is blown off, with a curt "the economy does itself". This slight is your damming statement, it reduces your whole treatise to dribble, which it is.

Facts are stupid things. But the truth is Clinton deserves little credit for the economy.

You then go on to say Clinton is blowing the gains of the end of the Cold War. How so, by making relations with China, Russia, and North Korea better than anytime since 1945. Is this bad having friends, if your view is consistent with likes of some of your congressional buds we need enemies to keep the pork barrel full of defense funding.

The Clinton policy of appeasement toward N. Korea and China and making bad loans to Russia every time they need a bail out will have a very high price tag in the final analysis.

So my friend you message was eloquent and well written, too bad the message was full of inconsistencies and blind disregard for the facts. I look forward to your's and you bud's here to provide rational objective rebuttals, partisan rhetoric keep to yourselves.

You must be talking about your response poor0turkey. Neocon was right on the money and he has the facts, not wishful thinking and WH spin, to back him up. Your desperate support of the scumbag in the WH is pathetic.

JLA