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Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: mark silvers who wrote (31080)	7/24/2000 1:20:53 AM
From: Jamey	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 39621

Hi Mark; Our basic foundation in and understanding of the Bible must be firm or we form erroneous conclusions. The Mosaic Covenant was very much based on human deeds and animal sacrifices based on perfect obeyance to the law not because God was expecting us to obey perfectly but to show the Jews how much in need of a Savior they were. God found favor in Abraham, for example, because he obeyed God by faith rather than following the law of Moses. Today, we know that the law destroys and that we can never please God through its application. Why? Because we have a new Covenant of Grace through faith because the perfect sacrifice, God's Son has paid the price of sin once and for all time. No Christian who recognizes the New Covenant(I hope!) still thinks that he has any chance at all by works to please God. I have many verses to back up what I say, but since you requested that Chris talk to you plainly of his own words I will do this as a favor to you so that you will know that God's Word is also within the believer without referring to the Bible. I hope that you will give this some thought when thinking that we, as Christians think that we are in anyway perfect. However, because of Christ's sacrifice for us, God only sees us as perfection. (We are covered in the blood of Christ.) James

To: mark silvers who wrote (31080)	7/24/2000 3:29:35 AM
From: Chris land	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

Mark, you always find some ways of belittling God when you ask me questions. That's why it's so hard sometimes to answer you back. Why did you just accuse God of not showing any compassion in the garden? Don't you think that there just may be some things that are a bit higher than our level of understanding? I believe Adam was made perfect. Now you are probably wondering what I mean by perfect. He was without sin or fault, but because he was perfect he had the ability to rebel or not against God. If God had created Adam with just one will, and that will was to always obey God in every aspect such as the revolving of the planets in their respected orbits then we could say he had no free will of his own. Thus imperfect! Now your contention basically boils down to God is at fault because he made Adam perfect! Did God know Adam was going to sin? Absolutely. God watched and let it build up but DID NOT INTERVENE! You don't want me to use scriptures but it's necessary to paint the picture. Adam and Eve were in the garden of Eden and were told they could eat of every tree except one, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God had warned them that the day they disobeyed and ate of that tree they would die. Do you think that God tucked that tree away in the far corner of the garden where perhaps if he was lucky they might not notice it? HECK NO, He put it smack dab in the center for all to see! Do you think the fruit was undesirable? I doubt that, I'll bet it's sweet scent and luscious fruit were greatly desired by all creation. Do you think God commanded all the other critters to stay away from it? Doesn't say so in the scriptures. I'll lay odds that the only reason Adam and Eve didn't disobey earlier than they did was because they were afraid of God. But let me point out that God doesn't want his people to obey Him out of fear but out of love and reverence. (A valuable lesson for all who would serve God) LISTEN MARK. GOD HAS NO SLAVES, BUT EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL CONFESS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD A scripture, OOps..sorry (yeah right!) Next scene: Here comes man's enemy satan, in the form of a beautiful creature. His job, though he was too ignorant to even know he was even being set up, was to allow Adam and Eve to believe that God was holding something back from them. That, as you also pointed out, he was not so full of compassion after all. The serpent convinced the two that God was not to be trusted and to eat the fruit so they will know in the future whether they are being conned or not out of something they thought they entitled to or deserved. Well we learn that they disobeyed, were cast from the garden and died spiritually. WAIT that was not the end, but just the beginning of where God's love and compassion intervenes. He had a plan from before the foundation of the world to not only redeem man but to raise him up to a place higher than the angels. The first sacrifice for sin and the ultimate sacrifice (JESUS) came from God himself. Recall that God clothed Adam and Eve with skins. Those skins came from a sacrifice. Though they sinned they were not without redemption! This was a side of God heaven had never before witnessed! Mark, I don't see a grudging God. I see a God who is so holy, noble, intelligent, compassionate and so far above me that something deep within says every breath I breath should be spent in praising him. Chris

To: mark silvers who wrote (31080)	7/24/2000 8:05:50 AM
From: Alan Markoff	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

Dear Mark, I know you asked Chris these questions but I would like to share my thoughts on them with you :-) <<<Why do suppose God wants/demands a perfect and unblemished sacrifice from human beings when he knows(according to the Bible) that humans are imperfect. Why demand an impossible solution and set humanity up to fail?>>> I believe that God holds everything together by His wisdom and His ways of Holiness. In other words when he told Adam and Eve to not eat of this fruit or you will surely die, it was a warning of consequences for their actions. The consequences for their poor choice are statements from God not judgement. Now that you have done this, this will happen to you. As A parent I can set standards for my children because I know what will happen to them if they fail to accept my warnings, I will then attempt to make atonement for them :-) Jesus is highly respected as a prophet by most religions and one reason is that He was the first to teach of God as a father that we can all relate to instead of a Wizard of Oz God of fear and trembling. The Bible is also clear that there is an accuser of humanity named satan. This spirit stays before God and accuses people continually. In order to be just (as He is by nature) He gives an answer of atonement through faith for those that accept Him and His sacrifice. I love to see you posting and pray you and your family are blessed in every way, Nancy