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Politics : PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Kevin Rose who wrote (133485)	3/25/2001 11:40:17 PM
From: ManyMoose	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 769667

I think you forgot there is a very large component of luck in success. Some people follow all the rules, take all the risks, and utterly fail. <<This results in a good number of people who work hard all their lives; sometimes 2 or 3 jobs; and never 'get ahead'.>> We had a Hispanic in our IT department. Things have gone downhill since he left because he knew what he was doing. I personally have a very high regard for Hispanics. The ones I've known work their butts off. Not many are rich, but this is changing. <<Although the state of California has a high population of Hispanics, I have encountered very few in the companies I work and deal with. Why is this? >>

To: Kevin Rose who wrote (133485)	3/26/2001 9:33:29 PM
From: rich4eagle	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 769667

Yes Kevin, it is those who have been virtually guaranteed some degree of success if they can get through college, which is no big deal when daddy shells out 25K per year that usually proclaim that the lazy poor are underachievers and they should keep all the money so that they can get rich. These folks don't have a clue and never will, because they just don't know what sweat equity is and that it sometimes produces little results, especially if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time

To: Kevin Rose who wrote (133485)	3/27/2001 12:37:13 AM
From: greenspirit	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 769667

Kevin, good points, I would like to add something to it though. It's simply a stereotype that Republicans all came from wealthy families who had everything handed to them, while Democrats came from impoverished backgrounds and had to struggle to get where they are. As an example, most of the wealthiest congresspeople are Democrats. They have far more millionaires in their ranks on the national level then Republicans do. Personally, I came from a middle class background in Washington D.C. While I was growing up, my mother was a travel agent, worked all of her life, my father a painter/wallpaperman. And I can assure you, there are lazy people in this world, who simply refuse to access the abundant opportunities our nation offers. A little story....When I was about 15, I worked full time in the summer, painting slum apartments in D.C. One day, I saw a long line in front of one of the small liquor stores which dot the corners of S.E. Washington. I asked my older friends, "why is their such a large line at the store today". Oh, it's because today was welfare check day, that's why. "Welfare checks, what's that I said". "It's when the government gives you money when you're out of work". "hmmm, ok". Weeks later I started paying attention to this welfare check thing, and noticed the same able bodied men who hung out on the streets doing nothing all day long, were the same people standing in line at the end of the month. So I started paying more attention, and when my boss would need someone to work for the day (usually because someone didn't show up), he would ask some of these men if they wanted a job. And nearly every one of them would say something like, Naah, maa'n, I've got better things to do with my time". I tell you this story in order to get you to understand, there are lazy people in this world. And in a lot of ways, we didn't do these people any good by "helping them out" with a welfare check. In many cases, we gave them an excuse not to work, and become lazier and lazier. Republican driven welfare reform has done far more for these people, by getting them off welfare, then a thousand left wing Democrat do-gooders ever did giving them a check. Here's an excellent article describing this cause and effect relationship. heritage.org Michael

To: Kevin Rose who wrote (133485)	3/27/2001 11:32:16 AM
From: Srexley	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 769667

"if you work hard, you will be successful" This formula does work, Kevin. I also agree that it is MUCH EASIER to succeed when you come from a family that succeeds. The reason (imo) is that the family has provided a working example of this formula. What bothers me the most is that democratic leadership directly and indirectly encourage a warfare between this group and the less fortunate. Instead of giving their constituents the message that "if you work hard, you will be successful" (while providing a safety net) they encourage a disdain for this group and make them out to be the problem in America. The dem leaders of the house and senate are directly implying (is that possible?) that well off people are "greedy" because they would like their tax rate lowered to 33% from 39%. How does that encourage anybody when you attack the very thing that you would hope that many would strive for? It's basic - If you penalize success and encourage mediocrity (or less), then that is what you get. I have heard (and believe) that many black kids think it is uncool to be smart (or viewed as smart). Do you believe this assertion? If so, where do you think they get this message? Scott

To: Kevin Rose who wrote (133485)	3/27/2001 12:45:29 PM
From: Lazarus_Long	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 769667

Many of these folk seem to think that life has a very simply formula: if you work hard, you will be successful. What, precisely, is wrong with that formula? No, it is not guaranteed, but it does work in a fair number of cases. What would you suggest instead? Give everyone $10,000,000 at birth? Make it illegal for parents with wealth to spend any on their kids? Yes, it is a simple formula; no, it does not always work. But it does work. Many who say that come from upper middle class and wealthy backgrounds, and have the incumbent educations. Again, what's your cure? Confiscate the wealth of the parents? That's really justice, isn't it? Maybe we can raise the hammer and sickle over the capitol building. To be sure, it (usually) takes a great deal of hard work to get ahead. But, some paths to success are just plain easier than others. The wealthier you are, the most cultural and economic support you have towards a good education. Life is not fair. It's not fair in socialist of communist countries either. Get used to it. The poorer you are, the more the forces pulling you in the OPPOSITE direction. This results in a good number of people who work hard all their lives; sometimes 2 or 3 jobs; and never 'get ahead'. You also have to work smart; 2 or 3 jobs sweeping floors is not likely to get you anything in terms of advancement, although dedication and hard work even here may attract attention. You need to watch for and put your efforts into the right work. But you knew that, didn't you? Whenever I make this argument, my wealthy friends point to individual instances of people of various poorer backgrounds who have 'made it'. I'd say I'm one. My family was lower middle class. About 12 years ago I was asked by a former boss to join to his start-up. He picked me because I would keep pounding on a problem until it was solved. For the first couple of years there, I had no week less than 60 hours. Many were 80, sometimes a hundred. But the job got done. A few years ago, the company IPOed. My point is not that there are not those who have; but that the amount of energy and perseverance they had to exhibit to get there was way above others who started from a 'higher' starting point. That's right, it's not easy. Whining doesn't help, though. You start from where you are in life; there's no place else you can. Although the state of California has a high population of Hispanics, I have encountered very few in the companies I work and deal with. Why is this? I'm sure 'll get flak for this but: Many (not all by any means) do not value education. Time spent in school is a waste of time. Commonly, they have too many kids too young. The kids keep them from continuing with their education and soak up time and resources needed to do and get the things that will help them. You think this is just the result of racist Caucasians in the US? What about all those Asians (Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Indians....) who have made it here? There is a Vietnamese sitting about 10 feet from me right now. He and his family got here 25 years ago with nothing but the clothes they were wearing. He had little education; he took care of that. Now he is a good engineer making 100K+ and two of his children are in top California universities. There must be an explanation. Cultural influences, lack of qualified education, economic conditions, whatever. And what is the solution? They need to change their attitudes and their culture. Others have. See above.

To: Kevin Rose who wrote (133485)	3/27/2001 1:28:36 PM
From: Thomas A Watson	Respond to of 769667

Dear Kevin, I marvel at the simplistic analysis you bring to this board and how telling it is about what you comprehend. you say... >>>Many of these folk seem to think that life has a very simply formula: if you work hard, you will be successful. Dear kevin, you see life has a very simple formula. If you work smart it is very very unlikely you will fail unless you are very very unlucky. Now if you work smart and work very very hard you will very very likely do extremely well in America. You skin color, your religion, your ethic background will not hurt your efforts and even how much money you have to start will not over time make much of a difference. So dear kevin it's not what you say. >>>To be sure, it (usually) takes a great deal of hard work to get ahead. Kevin it usually takes a great deal of smart work to get ahead. Now if someone works 120 hours a week at jobs that some 12 year olds could do then that individual is working hard but not working smart and as that individual has no time to think about how to work smart that individual will work 120 hours a week and go nowhere. The person will not have personal or monitary capitol to invest for future gains. No those who have a childhood with those who have some level of success are exposed to a world with parent mentors who are more likely to live how to work smart and those who have a childhood of a parent who works 120 hours basically never sees the parent. No supervision and exposure to bad places and people make for learning the wrong rules of the game of life. And of course the leaders in poor areas are preaching the gospel of you all are victims and must force the government to pay for you as you all are victims. Now take an activity like scouting that teaches ethics and hard work and tolerating people the anti victim message and that unqueer message will be ridiculed. Yes teaching youth how plan by themselves how to provision and be prepared for a four day trip away from the normal home environment will help little the poor victims who need reparations or the doll. watman.com Now Kevin you may be able to manage something or other but as an engineer I would not trust your judgement in selection of the color of paint for a product. Dear kevin you remind me of the add on tv about the guys who propose what to do but they don't do what they propose. Kevin a person who does know far better what is real than those propose and those who manage. tom watson tosiwmee ps, I think kevin has me on ignore. he does not like my style. Engineering the doing is about understanding that design failure is about understanding that lives are at stake and brutal truth is the language minimizes failures. Management of engineering is about getting it out the door and has in past led to spectacular failures. watman.com