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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Lane3 who wrote (11395)4/15/2001 3:54:14 PM
From: epicure  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 82486
 
I don't see how anyone could make a decision on how to evaluate and pigeonhole someone else's religion if that target person was quiet about religion. They would have to remain and unknown quantity until they opened their mouth. I think E would agree with that. But at the very least I agree with that.



To: Lane3 who wrote (11395)4/15/2001 4:09:13 PM
From: 2MAR$  Respond to of 82486
 
Christianity , if Jesus teachings are only followed

are is in his own words , extremely "fundamental"...

The truths he taught were simple truths ...
simple great truths in most every sense.

But they were truths that were easily lost
on his disciples many times though...as
when early on he sent them out to preach
and spread the word to all the surrounding
villages. They went with nothing and
were told to live off of the kindness
of strangers .

They feeling "ordained" with the power upon them
went out and preached ....
....and with certain success they returned to Jesus
who awaited them on the hill.

But there was one
village that would not accept the teachings....
and this village Peter and Luke I believe
wanted to Jesus to go down, and use
his Messiah's powers
and burn it to the ground.

Needless to say Jesus was more than a bit
irritated with them and had to embark
to instruct them further on
the ideas behind his visions were
non-material and
more of a fresh new change
of attitude and of a more contemplative
compassionate nature...

Fundamentalism becomes dangerous when it is
based on that which is not grounded in that
train of thought and state of mind of the
original inspired author/master.

To have a Christ state , one must emulate & become
the Christ state.
It is not up to God , scripture ,
or anything else that
i can see .

How can you teach Love to the world , and then
in the next breath say that Love & Compassion
comes only from only our pulpit ?

Jesus taught that love comes from within...that's
where things got away from them . Love is universal,
and not the property of one religion.

That is fundamental....

;-)



To: Lane3 who wrote (11395)4/15/2001 4:55:01 PM
From: E  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 82486
 
<<I don't know that it's the entries in the list that are at issue.>>

I made some generalizations ("my working definition") about what i'd observed about fundamentalists. He said that was bigoted. He didn't say which observations he felt were inaccurately descriptive, he just called me bigoted. So I still don't know anything except that he takes hostile exception to my listing. I don't know whether he considers, for example, that fundamentalists

~do show common sense

~have not devised (they would usually say "divined") "rules," and definitions, that are more important to them than kindness, love, joy, pleasure, happiness, sympathy, or amelioration of suffering.

~do not want to force everyone to live by their rules using the arm of the state, law, punishments; that is, to make their religious law into the civil law.

~don't believe there is a deity to whom they are very special and whose "will" they are positive they represent.

~don't place a low value on reason and evidence

I think the shortfall in your "definition" is that it doesn't allow for any individuals without that set of characteristics to be fundamentalists. Surely at least some fundamentalists are quietly pious. I knew one once.

I had an SI friend who was a born-again Christian. (We've fallen out of touch in the last year.) She is pious, and you might call her "quietly pious" since she doesn't talk much about such policies as taking away funds for family planning from clinics in AIDS-ridden third world countries where orphaned infants will thereby die in agony of starvation and disease if that clinic's physician's talk about (not offer, talk about) abortion to a pregnant woman with AIDS. She votes only for strict right to life candidates, though. She believes those who don't agree with her should be forced against their wills to gestate. She doesn't believe in evolution (she won't even get on the Intelligent Design theory bandwagon, I'm sure. Her children will, of course.) She surely does actively believe that only born-again Christians will take part in the Rapture and thinks it could commence at any moment. She is 50, and has been celibate since she was in her late 30's, ever since she joined her church.

She has a wonderful sense of humor, though. She really knows how to laugh and is very funny.

What would "quietly pious" Islamic fundamentalists believe about, for example, the question of whether Mohammed rode up to heaven on a winged horse? About the set of injunctions guaranteeing the permanent subordination of women? About making Islamic religious law the civil law to some degree, or in whole?

domini.org



To: Lane3 who wrote (11395)4/15/2001 5:09:49 PM
From: E  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 82486
 
My SI friend, the born again Christian, would defend Bush's gag rule, for example. I consider that my "working definition" fits her, therefore, though incompletely, quiet as is her piety.

W's Abortion 'Gag
Rule'


By Marta Gurvich
April 1, 2001

George W. Bush's global anti-abortion
policy has spread confusion and alarm
among international family-planning
organizations that fear his "gag rule"
could leave women, especially in
Catholic Third World countries, without
birth-control assistance and with higher
death rates from botched abortions.

Criticism has poured in from international
family-planning organizations that have battled
the spread of AIDS, the abuse of women and the
crushing burden of poverty in the Third World.

But Bush has made clear he is determined to
press ahead with a policy favored by his
conservative, anti-abortion constituency in the
United States.

To circumvent opposition in the U.S. Congress,
Bush has decided to issue a presidential
memorandum to implement the "global gag rule"
barring federal aid going to international groups
that use their own money to support abortion
rights, according to press reports. The
memorandum will give greater weight to a policy
that Bush first announced on Jan. 22, two days
after his inauguration.

"Under the gag rule, recipients of U.S.
family-planning funds must give up the ability to
provide legal health services and their basic
human right to take part in important policy
debates in their own countries
-- in short the very
integrity of their programs," complained Ingar
Brueggemann, director of the International
Planned Parenthood Federation. "Either choice
hurts the poorest in the world."


Brueggemann said the IPPF opposes abortion as
a method of family planning and seeks to reduce
the number of abortions by making
contraceptives available around the world. Still,
its criticism of Bush's policy could cost it U.S.
assistance that amounts to about 8 percent of its
budget.

Though a relatively small amount of IPPF's
budget, the loss of U.S. government money
would curtail some of the group's programs that
have nothing to do with abortion. For instance,
IPPF supports Bemfam, a Brazilian
family-planning organization that is dedicated to
helping the people of Brazil control family size in
a country where 60 percent of the people live in
poverty.

In Brazil, a Catholic country, abortion already is
tightly restricted.
Those laws have contributed to
women turning to illegal abortions to end
unwanted pregnancies, dangerous procedures
that have made botched abortions a major cause
of women's deaths in Brazil,
according to the
Alan Guttmacher Institute.

Bush's restoration of the "gag rule" is viewed as
likely to increase the numbers of women dying
from unsafe abortions in Brazil and elsewhere,
according to some family-planning specialists.

Besides the danger of death from botched
abortions, women in Brazil and some other Latin
American nations face at least one year in prison
if they undergo a clandestine abortion and are
arrested. The risks are heavier again for poor
women who can't afford to pay for safe abortions
and can face arrest if they seek emergency care
in a public hospital.

Reversals

Cutting the availability of the family planning
services also might prove counterproductive to
the goal of reducing the number of abortions.
Susane Tew of the Guttmacher Institute said
recent studies have shown that the better
abortion and contraceptive services available in a
country, the fewer abortions that country
registers.

Though Bush's policy could curtail programs at
some better-funded organizations, such as the
IPPF, those group could survive a cutoff of U.S.
aid. Other family-planning organizations are
much more dependent on U.S. support and could
be forced to close down.


The Center for Development and Population
Activities, for instance, is concerned that it could
lose 75 percent of its funding if it is judged in
violation of Bush's rule. The center is nervous
because it has urged the release of Min-Min, a
woman in Nepal who was jailed after she was
forced to have an abortion to end a pregnancy
resulting from a rape when she was 13 years old.


Other supporters of family planning believe that
Bush's policy could roll back broader progress
that women have achieved in gaining power over
their lives.

These critics note that even the Vatican -- a
powerful male bastion that has led the fight
against abortion rights -- has shown some
interest in finding common ground with other
religions. The Vatican hasn't compromised much
but has begun to recognize that a problem with
unwanted pregnancies exists and that there is a
need for family planning.

In 1994, the International Conference on
Population and Development in Cairo brought
together Catholics, Muslims, Jews and
Protestants with the goal of putting global
population policies within the broader context of
social development and improving the status of
women.

The Vatican signed the conference document
that accepted four points about abortion: that
abortion should not be used as a method of
family planning; that the numbers of abortions
should be reduced by expanding access to
family-planning services; abortions should be
safe where legal; and that the consequences of
illegal, unsafe abortions should be addressed.

That position was more in line with the
international family-planning policies adopted by
President Clinton who lifted the "global gag rule"
that was first imposed in the 1980s by President
Reagan at a population-control conference in
Mexico City. The "gag rule" was reaffirmed by
President George H.W. Bush and now is being
restored by George W. Bush.

European organizations are upset and
threatening to pursue their own course

Third World Consequences

Meanwhile, in the Third World, family-planning
advocates see what one called "grave
consequences" from Bush's strategy, especially
in Catholic Latin America.

"The gag rule is neither going to affect Europe nor
the United States nor many Asian developed
countries where abortion is legal and safe," said
Jacqueline Pitanguy, president of a
family-planning institute in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.
"Bush's decision is going to affect us, the Latin
American countries, where abortion is illegal,
clandestine and deadly.
It will negatively affect us
in two ways: in a cultural perspective and in a
practical way.

"The cultural consequence is that it will restore
an immense power to the conservatives, to the
rightist lobbies, that have been fighting against
not only abortion but many sexually oriented
programs."

Pitanguy said Bush's policies will give Latin
America's right wing "lobbying and financial
power to push backwards all the advances in
terms of women's legal rights, in terms of how
women are seen by the judicial and social
institutions. … Secondly, it will deprive families of
health services and family-planning programs."

While popular with social conservatives in the
United States and in the Third World, Bush's
strategy seems to have taken little account of the
complex relationships that exist between the
abortion/family-planning debate and the larger
socio-economic conditions in poor countries.

In those countries, the poor find themselves the
most likely victims of the anti-abortion policies, in
part because poor women are the most common
fatalities from unsafe abortions. They're also the
most likely to be imprisoned if caught.

On a larger scale, the loss of family-planning
assistance will mean more of the poor trapped in
cycles of poverty.
That development, too, seems
certain to strengthen the hand of the old-line
political forces throughout the Third World.

Marta Gurvich is an Argentine journalist who has
written about political and social issues in Latin
America for this publication for the past four
years. One of her articles examined the "dirty
war" in Argentina. Another looked at the
economic dilemma in Brazil.

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