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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: TimF who wrote (17061)6/18/2001 4:02:41 PM
From: Lane3  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 82486
 
but it would be pretty hard to convince me that making abortion legal has reduced the number of abortions.


I wouldn't try to do that, but I will reframe the issue. It's really not about whether or not there are abortions. There have always been abortions and there will always be abortions. The question is only whether or not they are safe and legal.

Karen



To: TimF who wrote (17061)6/18/2001 4:06:21 PM
From: 2MAR$  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 82486
 
The Catholic Church has not had the power to allow and forbid things for hundreds of years. It can tell you that it thinks they are wrong but no one has to listen. Outside of a few fundamentalist Islamic states no religious organization has that much power any more.

for hundreds of years the church has had no influence?

That is not even vaguely true.

oops , looks like ORCL just reported earnings ..



To: TimF who wrote (17061)6/18/2001 6:14:44 PM
From: Solon  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 82486
 
That's like saying "WWII and the pacifist movement increased American military spending in the 1940s".

No. It is not like saying anything else about anything. What is known is that the combination of legal abortion AND contraception dramatically reduces abortions. It is also known that countries with legalized abortions have a far lower incidence of abortions than those where the abortions are done illegaly. The highest abortion rates in the world are in ILLEGAL abortion countries. In Chile one in THREE pregnant woman choose to abort--ILLEGALLY and at extreme risk to life and health. Let us look at the Romanian example:

(by) Joyce Arthur

"In 1967, Romanian dictator Nicolai Ceausescu came to power and reversed that country's policy of legal and safe abortion. Although the birth rate initially increased, by the 1980's, it had shrunk back down to the mid-60's level because underground abortion networks had mushroomed. The drive to increase births was not accompanied by any basic medical or social improvements. Countless mothers and babies died for lack of medical care, food, and maternity beds. The country was so embarrassed at its soaring maternal and infant mortality rates that it abandoned international standards for recording them. Over the course of 20 years, an estimated 10,000 women died needlessly from illegal abortions alone. Ceausescu's action led to his downfall (he was executed in 1989), and it resulted in thousands of abandoned and neglected children whose plight moved the world.

One of the succeeding government's first acts was to legalize abortion as an emergency health measure. International family planning agencies were invited to set up clinics in Romania, and they found that 40% of women of childbearing-age had reproductive tract damage left by illegal abortions. Continued economic chaos and lack of medical care means than Romania has a very high abortion rate even today, about 1.3 million for every half-million live births. Even so, almost 2,000 babies were abandoned at maternity hospitals in 1994. Countless thousands of children still languish today in orphanages, in squalid conditions, and another 10,000 wander the streets of Romanian cities, homeless. School enrollment has dropped by 21% since 1992 and over 400,000 children have quit school since 1992. About 2,500 Romanian kids are HIV positive, more than the combined total of all Western Europe. And dozens of pedophiles from Western Europe travel regularly to Romania because of its reputation as a country where children are desperate and vulnerable.

Given these deplorable conditions, it will probably take Romania several generations before it can hope to heal the human misery caused by Ceausescu's brutal policy against abortion and contraception. This country serves as a malignant example of the uncivilized consequences of so-called "pro-life" policies."


On the other hand, we have The Netherlands:

(by) Joyce Arthur

"In the Netherlands, abortion is freely available on demand. Yet the Netherlands boasts the lowest abortion rate in the world, about 6 abortions per 1000 women per year, and the complication and death rates for abortion are miniscule. How do they do it? First of all, contraception is widely available and free -- it's covered by the national health insurance plan. Holland also carries out extensive public education on contraception, family planning, and sexuality. An ethic of personal responsibility for one's sexual activity is strongly promoted. Of course, some people say that teaching kids about sex and contraception will only encourage them to have lots of sex. But Dutch teenagers tend to have less frequent sex, starting at an older age, than American teenagers, and the Dutch teenage pregnancy rate is 9 times lower than in the U.S.

An important message that we can learn from Holland and other European countries is that even the most comprehensive family planning programs and widespread contraceptive use will never completely eliminate the need for abortion...
"

The Catholic Church has not had the power to allow and forbid things for hundreds of years

You miss the point between legal authority to punish and the authority to proselytize the punishment of God. The Catholic church has incredible influence over people and thus over the government policies that people endure. The simple truth of the matter is that in Roman Catholic Latin America, abortion is illegal, but is being performed at one of the highest levels in the world. And as for the woman it doesn't kill--well, their health is often destroyed. But really--who cares? When the combination of contraception and abortion can produce the statistics of the Netherlands, instead of those in Chile, and people still pretend that they can prevent a woman from controlling her own body--well good for them. I am sure God will bless them for the death and suffering they are causing. The Catholic Church doomed itself by the doctrine of infallibility. But their digging in of the heels puts me in mind of a scorced earth policy. God luck to them, but the world has become too educated and too humane to allow this irrationality to go on much longer.

In Canada, "90% of abortions are performed in the first trimester, and no doctor will perform abortions past about 20 or 21 weeks unless it's for compelling health or genetic reasons. Just over 100,000 abortions are performed per year in Canada, a reasonably low rate of 16 per 1000 women." But no. Be like Romania or Chile. Make it illegal, dangerous, and ubiquitous.