SI
SI
discoversearch

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor.  We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community.  If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.
Politics : High Tolerance Plasticity -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Raymond Duray who wrote (7841)9/13/2001 8:38:54 PM
From: stockman_scott  Respond to of 23153
 
4,763 Missing in Trade Center Attack

Thursday September 13 6:30 PM ET

By LARRY McSHANE, Associated Press Writer

NEW YORK (AP) - The gruesome search through the mass graveyard of the World Trade Center yielded no survivors Thursday, and hopes dimmed for the more than 4,700 missing souls. President Bush (news - web sites) promised to visit New York to ``hug and cry'' with its shaken citizens.

Two days after the Trade Center was hit and destroyed by two hijacked passenger planes, swirling dust kept visibility limited and sanitation trucks waged a losing fight against the residue of the blast. Hundreds of family members searched for any sign of their loved ones.

Tens of thousands of residents still could not return to their homes in a closed-off lower Manhattan. Nerves were frayed by bomb scares and false alarms, both in New York and in Washington.

And the city brought in 30,000 body bags for pieces of human remains.

``Even scary movies do not happen like this,'' said Enver Kesti, 42, a pizza chef who returned to clean up a lower Manhattan gourmet shop that once sat in the towers' shadows.

Bush declared Friday, the day of his New York visit, a ``national day of prayer and remembrance.'' He asked Americans to spend their lunch breaks taking part in services at their chosen places of worship, White House spokesman Ari Fleischer (news - web sites) said.

The president praised New Yorkers for showing ``the compassion of America and the bravery of America.''

New York was not alone in counting its missing and dead. At the Pentagon (news - web sites) - also a target of terrorist hijackers Tuesday - 126 people were believed to be dead and 70 bodies had been recovered. Among those assumed dead was a three-star Army general.

Add the 4,763 missing reported by Mayor Rudolph Giuliani (news - web sites), plus the 266 passengers and crew members who died aboard the planes that hit the Trade Center, the Pentagon and a field southeast of Pittsburgh, and the total dead in Tuesday's carnage could be more than 5,000.

That would be higher than the death toll from Pearl Harbor and the Titanic combined. A total of 2,390 Americans died at Pearl Harbor nearly 60 years ago, and the sinking of the Titanic claimed 1,500 lives.

Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz told reporters at the Pentagon that the U.S. response to the attacks that wrought these horrors would ``unfold over time.''

``One thing that is clear is you don't do it with just a single military strike, no matter how dramatic,'' Wolfowitz said.

In Congress, a bipartisan coalition worked on approving two measures: an emergency anti-terrorism package that could cost $20 billion, and support for the use of force by Bush against those responsible.

Up to 50 people were involved in the attack, the Justice Department (news - web sites) said, with at least four hijackers trained at U.S. flight schools. Saudi fugitive Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) remained a top suspect.

Attorney General John Ashcroft (news - web sites) said authorities had ``thousands and thousands'' of leads. He said they had determined that 18 hijackers were on the planes: groups of five on two planes and groups of four on the others.

In New York, the difficulties of extracting bodies from the rubble meant that while 164 deaths had been confirmed, city officials prepared to watch the total soar. The missing included nearly 400 city firefighters and police officers. Another 2,300 people were injured.

The lone bit of bright news was the recovery of two firefighters who slipped into an underground pocket beneath the rubble while searching for survivors on Thursday. The two radioed for help and were rescued by fellow firefighters several hours after they fell.

At One Liberty Plaza, an office building near the Trade Center site, volunteers were evacuated when the top 10 stories of the complex appeared unsteady. Workers fled, sprinting down the street.

At a grief center set up for families with missing relatives, Jeanine Nardone arrived to look for her brother. She had hung his photo in a Brooklyn subway station, hoping someone would recognize Mario Nardone - a 32-year-old Staten Islander, 6-foot-1, 180 pounds, bald with blue eyes, who worked on the 83rd floor of Two World Trade Center. ``He's a strong person,'' Nardone said. ``He would not give up on us. And I'm not going to give up on him.''

Many family members stopped by the armory-turned-counseling center established by the city. Looking south from there, the seemingly endless plume of acrid, white smoke from the wreckage still corkscrewed above the Manhattan skyline.

At Bellevue Hospital, a blue wall erected around a construction site was covered with pictures and descriptions of the missing, and prayers for safe returns.

New Yorkers did take some small steps toward normal life. While everything south of 14th Street remained closed, the northern part of Manhattan became busier. Office buildings reopened, restaurants put out sidewalk tables and hawkers handed out flyers. Traffic on the streets and subways was up sharply compared to Wednesday.

The government gave the go-ahead for commercial flights to resume and some did, but schedules were expected to be in disarray, and heavy security was the rule.

Bond trading resumed, while Wall Street officials said the stock markets were expected to open again on Monday. The shutdown on the New York Stock Exchange (news - web sites) was already longer than the two-day closure at the end of World War II; the next-longest lasted a week, after the 1929 crash.

But the National Football League called off the 15 games scheduled for this weekend, and all Division I-A college football games also were postponed. Major-league baseball extended its hiatus through the weekend.

In Washington, the Senate was evacuated because of a bomb scare, and officials disclosed that Vice President Dick Chaney moved to Camp David in what his spokeswoman called ``a purely precautionary measure.''

``From a security standpoint, this is not business-as-usual any more,'' said press secretary Juleanna Glover.

New Yorkers also remained edgy. On Staten Island, parents pulled children off school buses after a report that a car possibly linked to the terrorists had driven into the borough. At LaGuardia Airport, passengers were briefly evacuated from the just-reopened facility after a man said something about a device in a bag. Buildings around Manhattan were evacuated as authorities erred on the side of caution.

``Right now, a lot of people are panicking,'' said Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik. ``And they really have to be as cautious as possible.''



To: Raymond Duray who wrote (7841)9/13/2001 9:24:58 PM
From: sportsman  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 23153
 
Ray,
Assuming the reports concerning the 4th plane that went down in Pittsburgh are true, then it seems there is a time and place to fight back. How many lives were saved due to the brave hostages that stopped another attack possibly on the White House? Had they not fought back, how many more lives would have been lost?
We know this is not the first time Bin Laden has struck at the US. We have had limited responses to his attacks in the past and this was by far the worst attack of all. I can't imagine trying to talk rationally to these people, since we just witnessed there is no rationality to them. We have to make it costly as possible every time he commits an evil act.
Time to take action
Sportsman



To: Raymond Duray who wrote (7841)9/13/2001 9:44:02 PM
From: CpsOmis  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 23153
 
Ray, you said: <<I find it fascinating that the "libs" on this thread (if I can use that discredited term) such as Cosmo, you and I can clearly empathize with the equivalent of Joe Six Pack in Cairo, Tehran or Kabul and understand their deep frustration with U.S. meddling

I was a bit surprised by that statement, Ray. Before the political 'propaganda' struggles of the last 10-15 highly polarized political years, empathy and compassion for others did not have political philosophies associated with them. As a proud conservative Republican, I agree that government which governs best governs least, charity is important, but the role of private citizens not the government...FWIW.

Cosmo



To: Raymond Duray who wrote (7841)9/14/2001 4:05:54 AM
From: que seria  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 23153
 
Raymond: Your points about US Mideast policy and resentment
of it don't negate the justness and necessity of retaliation.

For the sake of our fat-assed SUVs, and before that our luxury sedans and extravagant skybuses, we have meddled incessantly in the affairs of the Middle East since the 1930's.

Truth in that, but there's also the little matter of so many Arabs being explicit and serious about wanting to push the Jews into the sea, and trying since 1948. Granting that dispossession of many Palestinians in setting up and sustaining Israel was/is illegitimate, many Arabs' notion of who are proper targets of retaliation forecloses any chance of a peaceful balance there. I agree with George Washington's farewell address, but since Tuesday I would not leave Israel alone to fend off the region's hyenas.

We are deeply resented in that part of the world for propping up some of the most wretched monarchist and fascist regimes in the world.

Yes, but they grew their own even if we watered them. From my Eurocentric perspective there's an obvious cause and effect relationship between Islam and what I'll accept from consensus reports (from Arabs as well) as the wretched state of so much of the Arab world. Sadly, we chose our interventions and now reap the long-simmering hate, but they manage to be wretched all by themselves. We just make a rich target to vent their anger. The parlous state of the Arab world, which bin Laden is exercised about in his 1996 tract, is the worldly realization of their primitive philosophy. It leads to primitive lives. I sense the usual envy behind the mask of asceticism and purity.

. . . all this is lost on the great number of contributors here who simply want to think about the next level of escalated involvement in the affairs of parts of the world where the bulk of ordinary populations are repulsed by the American approach.

I doubt most of us speaking out the last few days want much "involvement" for our nation in the Arab world. We just want to exterminate the terrorists. Kill and leave. If we had a president with a command of history, smart, who could speak (no, not Al Gore), he could address the Middle East troubles (speaking, even, directly to the Arabs) in a way that acknowledges the Palestinians' legitimate grievances yet explains why we will find and kill terrorists wherever and whenever we can. But our president would first have to begin visible retaliation before he could even hint that our Middle East policy may change in any way. Much as I disagree with our past ME policy, I wouldn't do or say anything that gives even the appearance of kow-towing to terrorism.

I find it fascinating that the "libs" on this thread (if I can use that discredited term) such as Cosmo, you and I can clearly empathize with the equivalent of Joe Six Pack in Cairo, Tehran or Kabul and understand their deep frustration with U.S. meddling. Others on this thread are blissfully unconcerned about these ordinary humans who've been pushed beyond their boiling point by U.S. arrogance.

The US, like the rest of the world, doesn't divide neatly into liberal and conservative. Many persons who call themselves conservatives would like to avoid foreign entanglements, but not because our nation is wrong or arrogant in the sides it picks. Rather, we can't do a good job of improving the situation by force, except in nations that share our European-born but now much more freedom-oriented value system and have seen it overriden by tyrants without popular support. Rarely turns out to be as temporary or as tyrannical as we think. Avoiding cesspools is common sense as well as good foreign policy, but that oily sheen on the cesspool has tempted us too often in the ME.



To: Raymond Duray who wrote (7841)9/14/2001 11:57:26 AM
From: William JH  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 23153
 
Re: "I find it fascinating that the "libs" on this thread (if I can use that discredited term) such as Cosmo, you and I can clearly empathize with the equivalent of Joe Six Pack..."

Hi Ray,

The tenor of that paragraph you wrote bothered me greatly last night. For eight years during the Clinton administration we were subjected to a relentless propaganda campaign to portray liberals as compassionate, and conservatives as uncaring, mean spirited.

During the 90's, the pastor of the church I attend adopted 5 different children. That is commitment and compassion far beyond politics, yet the media brainwashing portrayal continues, in part because many conservatives feel that government give-away programs actually hurt the people they are supposed to help. I've worked as a volunteer in a downtown mission, I know how hard it is to help some people.

Please understand, I think you are a witty and highly intelligent person, I just can't stomach liberalism, whether theological or political. There is truth and there is error. No amount of rhetoric or psychobabble can change that.

Regards, WJH