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To: pater tenebrarum who wrote (123307)	9/18/2001 1:50:41 PM
From: robnhood	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 436258

<<-- DJ Soviet Veterans Warn US Against War In Afghanistan -- MOSCOW (AP)--The prospect of a U.S. attack on Afghanistan brings an ominous message from veterans of the Soviet Union's decade-long war with Afghan guerrillas: You'll never win. "You can occupy it, you can put troops there and keep bombing, but you cannot win," said Lt. Gen. Ruslan Aushev, who was decorated for bravery during the 1979-89 war. The brutal conflict in the mountainous land helped bring about the superpower's collapse. The Soviet Union said it lost 15,000 troops in Afghanistan, and unofficial estimates are much higher. Moscow sent troops to the country to back a fledgling Communist government against Islamic rebels supported by the United States. The Taliban militia who now rule most of Afghanistan have sheltered Osama bin Laden, whom the United States suspects of masterminding last week's terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. Any nation sheltering bin Laden faces "the full wrath" of the United States, Vice President Dick Cheney said Sunday. But even if U.S. officials are certain bin Laden is in Afghanistan, it may be impossible to find him there, Aushev said in a telephone interview Tuesday from the Russian region of Ingushetia, of which he is president. "It's as easy to lose yourself in the mountains as in the jungle," he said. "They'll find him only if they're ready to go over 500,000 square kilometers (200,000 square miles) rock by rock." Renowned warriors, the people of Afghanistan have staved off many a foreign enemy. Like the Soviet Union and the U.K., which attempted to conquer the country in the 19th century, the U.S. is destined to fail, Aushev said. "America doesn't want to kill 20 million Afghans," he said, implying that nothing short of genocide could win a war in Afghanistan. "No matter how they prepare for a ground operation, it is hopeless," said Yevgeny Zelenov, a member of the Russian parliament and a veteran of the Soviet war. U.S. troops would be facing a people who have learned to "sleep and live with their weapons," he said. After the Soviet occupation, violence among rival factions killed more than 50,000 people. And fighting between the Taliban, who preach the idea of holy war, and the northern-based opposition alliance has continued since the Islamic fundamentalist militia took power in 1996. But Alexei Arbatov, deputy chairman of the Russian parliament's defense committee, said U.S. officials have the advantage of Soviet experience as they plan their campaign. Moscow has amassed in-depth knowledge of Afghanistan's terrain and may still have valuable intelligence contacts that it could share with Washington. But the United States may be able to learn the most from Soviet mistakes, Arbatov said. "At a minimum, the experience of Russia in Afghanistan is already influencing the U.S. in the sense that the United States is not planning - and I am convinced will never plan - to bring in a big contingent of ground troops with the goal of occupying Afghanistan," he said at a news conference. But because of the abundance of hiding places, missile strikes without a ground operation are destined to be nothing but "noise, aimed at showing the government is doing something," Zelenov said. Khulkar Yusupov, who covered the Soviet war for the newspaper Komsomolskaya Pravda, said he doubted the United States could pinpoint military targets and avoid heavy civilian casualties. During the Soviet war, Yusupov was most disturbed by the suffering among the already impoverished civilian population. "You can't just pinpoint one gorge there. If you hit one gorge, you hit all the nearby villages," he said. (END) DOW JONES NEWS 09-18-01 01:46 PM- - 01 46 PM EDT 09-18-01>>

To: pater tenebrarum who wrote (123307)	9/18/2001 3:22:41 PM
From: Haim R. Branisteanu	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 436258

Heinz, I started to answer you and it got to lengthy. In summary I agree that the West has a way of betting on the wrong horse in retro -respect. The main issue is that the West is more concerned with immediate results or gratification, versus other religions were the time has less of an importance. Haim

To: pater tenebrarum who wrote (123307)	9/18/2001 3:33:17 PM
From: Ilaine	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 436258

So we should have let the Soviets conquer Afghanistan? BTW, the people fighting the Soviets were not the Taliban. The Taliban took over afterwards. A lot of the former freedom fighters are refugees here in the USA. Saudi Arabia and China gave the Afghan freedom fighters even more money that the USA did. The war waged for ten years. It was likened to VietNam for the Soviet Union. If the Soviets had prevailed in Afghanistan, Pakistan was likely to be next.

To: pater tenebrarum who wrote (123307)	9/18/2001 6:16:16 PM
From: Haim R. Branisteanu	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 436258

Heinz, those are one of the problems the west is facing ........... middle age mentality Extreme Palestinian groups oppose cease-fire, anti-terror campaign The militant Palestinian group Islamic Jihad said Tuesday that it rejected the cease-fire announced independently by both sides. "Islamic Jihad in Palestine rejects the so-called cease-fire, which comes at a time when the Zionist enemy continues its aggression against our defenseless Palestinian people," the group said in a statement. Senior Muslim clergymen linked to Hamas issued a religious edict Tuesday, saying those siding with the United States against Muslims are traitors. Offenders would be committing one of the biggest crimes and treason against God, the Prophet Muhammad and the believers, said Sheik Hamed Bitawi, making the announcement in the West Bank town of Nablus. http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=75623&contrassID=1&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y In this instance the US is making it's additional mistake under pressure from it's European partners (mostly France Spain Belgium Scandinavia etc. ) who as usual all they care about is to gain access to business deals in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran and other Persian Gulf countries. There was an article on SI from Canada about how Europe is undermining any US efforts that do not benefit them 80 years ago Lenin is quoted as saying that capitalism in their feverish greed of money will design and manufacture the rope to hang them ............ in retro respect he was right. This is an additional difference of perception between Western world and East. In the mean time I think one of the successes of the Islamic world is to drag the US in their prolonged skirmish over the Silk Roads which since Alexander the Great was a trap for any one trying to impose law and order in those rugged mountains and beautiful valleys. Haim