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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Lola who wrote (3948)10/10/2001 12:05:30 AM
From: HG  Respond to of 281500
 
And this is why most of the world will continue hating US...

All those questions people asked - Why do they hate us - well, here's an example of double standards and manipulating behaviour. Here is how the hatred breeds and grows and is justified.

This is why America is hated.

Oh well....



To: Lola who wrote (3948)10/10/2001 12:20:52 AM
From: Nadine Carroll  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Good comments, Lola. US short-termism plus a certain measure of just plain obtuseness and obliviousness to others have imo contrived to get the US more hated in certain quarters than an out-and-out campaign of conquest & domination would have managed. Much more hated, in fact, because much less feared.



To: Lola who wrote (3948)10/10/2001 12:43:00 AM
From: Area51  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 281500
 
I almost feel like most of the posts tonight should be to this thread.
Subject 51796

Like India had nothing to do with creating the problems in the Kashmir:
For their part, Indian officials admit their own culpability in creating an intolerable situation in the region. They ignored Kashmir's significant economic troubles, rampant corruption, and rigged elections, and they intervened in Kashmiri politics in ways that contradicted India's own constitution. As American scholar Sumit Ganguly explains, the rigged 1987 state-assembly elections were the final straw in a series of insults, igniting, by 1989, widespread violent opposition. By 1992, Pakistani nationals and other graduates of the Afghan war were joining the fight in Kashmir.
foreignaffairs.org

But never mind that. Of course the U.S. is responsible for all the world's problems.

So what is your desired solution. Kill Mushararraf, and then exchange nuclear missles with the the extremist Islamic pakistani government??



To: Lola who wrote (3948)10/10/2001 1:00:27 AM
From: BirdDog  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
U.S. has always projected a very selfish attitude about how they deal with political situations.

Oh yes.... The US really missed out on the tremendous oil reserves in Vietnam and North Korea. The US has never done anything to help other countries. Nope...we just destroy them then let them starve...as Japan and Germany about that. We weren't interested in helping starving people in Somalia...we were there only to loot all the gold and jewels. We're so bad....
And the rest of the world is so just and good. Especially the fundamentalist Muslims. They just want a nice fair Muslim world...that's all.
We should just give into all these unselfish judgements of us. We should give money away like it means nothing to us. We should listen carefully to every Osama, Hitler, Stalin, and just revolutionary group there is. We should run around with our noses up their rear ends until we're not able to do anything anymore...and the whole world will be living like Afghanistan has been...yes! lets welcome that paradise! We're so bad and mean to everyone, we should beg them to allow us to be their slaves. All those pius Islamic fundamentalists wouldn't hurt a flea...all they ever do is flourish in wonderfull inventions to help mankind...until we stop them...bad us...we're so bad...

BirdDog@thouroughlydisgusted.com



To: Lola who wrote (3948)10/10/2001 7:10:29 AM
From: Ilaine  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 281500
 
>>The U.S. is implementing a flawed strategy to fight terrorism because their intelligence people failed to do their job properly.<<

As your own posts, and countless other posts on SI, and countless other writers all over the world indicate, the US is hated because, because, because this, that, the other thing, a laundry list that seems to be several billion items long.

OK - let's assume that what you say is true. Now, what do you think Americans do when we hear billions of people say "we hate the US"?

We change our foreign policy to try to please them. We change our foreign policy to try to please everyone. We try to make India and Pakistan happy at the same time. We try to make Northern Ireland and Ireland happy at the same time. We try to make Israel and Palestine happy at the same time.

And we keep gutting our CIA because everyone keeps saying it's all the CIA's fault.

It's lunacy.

I wish I had a dollar for everyone who has said that the Taliban is the CIA's fault - I think I'd be a multi-billionaire.

But how is the Taliban the CIA's fault?

Correct me if I am wrong, but the logic goes like this:

1. In 1979, the United States started supplying the Afghani mujahideen with weapons to fight the Soviet invasion (this was during the Cold War, which you are probably too young to remember). Notice that the assistance was not only from the CIA, but the CIA was there, too, I suppose. At any rate, the operation was covert.

2. When the Soviets finally gave up, the Communist-backed government lasted for a while longer in Afghanistan, and finally collapsed in 1990.

3. There was a power vacuum in Afghanistan, and years of tribal warfare broke out.

4. The Taliban came into power in 1996. I believe that you are aware that the Taliban was backed by elements in Pakistan, and perhaps other countries as well.

Now, how does that make the CIA responsible for the Taliban?

BTW, a lot of the relevant documents have been declassified:
192.195.245.32

Excellent essay:
192.195.245.32
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It is undisputable that from 1979-1990, the United States engaged in a struggle against the Soviet Union through proxies, the mujahideen of Afghanistan.

It is also indisputable that the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan and was attempting to make it part of the Soviet Union, like the surrounding nations of Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, and Turkmenistan. It is no accident that this occured only a few months after the Shah of Iran was deposed and Iran was taken over by Islamic fundamentalists. Iran had been a base of power for the US, and the Soviets were eager to capitalize on the US's loss. But the ultimate goal wasn't Afghanistan, which is of value only due to the fact that it would get the Soviets that much closer to the Persian Gulf and the Indian Ocean - and the countries in the region, which would also have become puppet states.

It is also indisputable that many, if not most, of the people of Afghanistan did not want to be part of the Soviet Union.

It is also indisputable that the failure of the Soviet Union in Afghanistan helped the process of ending the Cold War, and the breakup of the Soviet empire into a number of free nations, which has ultimately led to the unlikely event of the Russian Duma signing some kind of treaty with NATO yesterday, among other astonishing events.

I am not old enough to remember the beginning of the Cold War, but I remember the Berlin Wall being built, and I remember it coming down. The liberation of Eastern Europe from the Iron Curtain was wonderful, and I think we will all continue to benefit from the freedom which is still new to the former Soviet countries, for a very long time.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Back to Afghanistan. It's a mess. 20-something years of war will do that to a country. We need to do something about it.

If you want to blame America, blame me. I voted for Reagan, and I gave money to the mujahideen - we called them freedom fighters - and I am glad that I did.

Blame Reagan, for supporting the freedom fighters. Blame Clinton, for not helping more afterwards.

But quit blaming the poor CIA. They are just bureaucrats, not a rogue agency, no matter what you see in the movies. And the damn Congress keeps weakening them because they watch the same movies you do.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
People who say that the Soviet government would have been better for the people of Afghanistan should read up on the Shah of Iran. He was, I believe, a better ruler for the people of Iran than the Ayatolla. Women were far better treated there when he was in charge, for example.

Why do people simultaneously castigate the US for supporting the Shah and for opposing the Soviet-backed government in Afghanistan? Hint, hint - whose interests are involved?



To: Lola who wrote (3948)10/10/2001 8:16:09 AM
From: Jill  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Lola, I have to agree w/ BirdDog, CB, and Area51 here. Your comments really make no sense to me. There is really no out here for the U.S.--after 7,000 civilians were killed by "missile/planes" and one was killed by bio-engineered anthrax, and more are threatened. And not only do we have to "sleep" with the enemy--an Indian friend of mine who grew up in London told me yesterday the way we will probably get Bin Laden will be by making a deal with lesser terrorists (who knows--maybe infiltrators in ISI? Or Hamas) behind the scenes, giving them concessions that might appal most citizens, and the world will never know about that. It's a dirty business. That doesn't mean we "fail" to see that other countries have a right to defend themselves against terrorism. When have we ever had a position like that?

What would long-term thinking here be? "Let's wait for another attack"? Frankly, wars have existed for as long as civilization has, and "long-term" thinking, whatever that might be, would not have prevented them.



To: Lola who wrote (3948)10/10/2001 9:32:04 AM
From: Uncle Frank  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
>> This is where U.S. government has failed miserably ...

If you're going to characterize the US as a failure, who would you propose as a standard of success?

>> The U.S. is implementing a flawed strategy to fight terrorism because their intelligence people failed to do their job properly.

Our intelligence people have been handicapped by budgetary and legislative constraints for decades, largely related to the American electorate's lack of awareness of vulnerability to terrorism. Now that the myth of Fortress America has been exposed, I believe you'll see those constraints removed and we will pursue terrorists ruthlessly. The battle has only just begun, so it's outrageously premature for you to judge these efforts.

jmho,
uf



To: Lola who wrote (3948)10/10/2001 10:49:26 AM
From: Original Mad Dog  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
U.S. has always projected a very selfish attitude about how they deal with political situations

A lot of people jumped on you for your statement. I actually agree that the U.S. has often failed to achieve its goals due to defining its "missions" in too much of a short term context. But what I found most interesting was this "selfish" part of it.

Isn't foreign policy supposed to be selfish? Aren't countries expected to act in their own self interest?

Most are. But with the U.S., a different standard is often applied. The implied expectation is that part of U.S. foreign policy is supposed to be designed to help the world at large, to make it a better and safer and more prosperous place. What other nation is expected to tax its citizens to send food to corrupt countries? When there are refugees and oppressed minorities, whether they be Kurds in Northern Iraq or ethnic Albanians in Kosovo or Kuwaitis under Saddam's boot, why do their leaders ask, "where is America? Why haven't they helped us?" We don't always succeed in helping them, we don't always try (for which we are also criticized), but stop to think....why are they asking us instead of somebody else?

I think the reason is, that no one else, no other country, has successfully articulated the ideal of personal liberty and freedom the way the U.S. has. Yes, we are the wealthiest country in history, and that is part of the reason so much is expected of us. But what many fail to understand is that our wealth and our personal liberty and freedom are linked; the wealth resulted in large part from the freedoms. Many (especially oppressive foreign governments) hate us not only because we are wealthy, but because that wealth came from a system diametrically opposed to their own.



To: Lola who wrote (3948)10/10/2001 12:20:41 PM
From: Hawkmoon  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
India has MY permission... :0)

But that said, I still do not consider attacks against clearly defined military targets to be "terrorism".. I wouldn't even consider the attack against the Pentagon to be a terrorist act, except that a civilian airliner was utilized as the weapon.

Some people think that "revolutions" are monolithic and reflect the will of the people when, in fact, they generally reflect the will of the few who have financial or political interests in such events.

I submit this is also the case for the American Revolution.. It was mainly a rebellion by a few powerful individuals who were able to convince their constituency that they should support and participate in it.

But where I draw a DEFINITE DISTINCTION between the American revolution and others that we have seen since, is that a different and more egalitarian system arose from the American revolution, and not a dictatorship. George Washington was offered the presidency for life, but in one simple refusal, he set the foundation for the very system of government we have today. In essence, he knew how to exercise self-limitation of his own power and that personal set of principles was derived from his own moral values.

So I support any revolution which seeks to replace the established system with one that is more open and free, and derives power from the people it governs. But such a revolution would hardly validate or encourage the targeted of civilians as legitimate targets....

Thus, if a revolutionary leadership is willing to encourage and exercise terror against civilians, it's hardly the kind of uprising, or guerilla movement that's worth defending or supporting.

Hawk