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To: Zeev Hed who wrote (78798)	10/24/2001 12:15:36 AM
From: Little Joe	Respond to of 116752

Zeev: One of the saddest posts I have ever read. It is a shame that it was necessary for you to post it. Hitler was evil incarnate. It happened in one of the most literate, cultured and educated countries in the world. It is something I just can't understand. Little joe

To: Zeev Hed who wrote (78798)	10/24/2001 8:16:55 AM
From: John Soileau	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 116752

OT Zeev, I follow your numbers better than Charters', but are you taking into account emigration? Many jews made it out, to the US, Britain, etc. Of course they would not show up on any post-war census in the ravaged countries. I'm not sure you can just subtract before and after censuses and get a reliable Nazi murder number. Also, the jewish and non-jewish population endured other (non-genocide) sources of mortality, such as diseases, collateral damage from bombing, starvation, etc. and I think your estimate needs to adjust for those also. One million, five million, eight million, it's all still genocide, but if estimates are to be used they need to be good ones, or the denial community just gets more fodder for their odious mill. I'm glad you also gave the personal accounts. There's nothing more convincing than talking to an eyewitness to genocide. Some years ago, my wife's grandmother told me of her childhood during the Armenian genocide. Her father, mother, and three siblings were "eliminated" by the Turks when she was nine. They came door to door for the Armenians in the night. She ran, alone and crying, down a road to another village, and miraculously was taken in by a Turkish family and hidden until after WWI, and ultimately was able to emigrate to the States. Nowadays, many a Turk will tell you that nothing happened then at all, nothing at all. Let them tell her that. John

To: Zeev Hed who wrote (78798)	10/24/2001 8:22:49 AM
From: E. Charters	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 116752

Well Zeev you believe you are not lying and I believe I am not lying. So we are both liars for that are we? Probably so. My Europe did not include Russia. We are not far apart there. So we are both lying equally well there. Your lying falls down where you cannot count and where you fail to count all sources and authenticate your figures. So lets count like kids OK? Have you ever moved one hundred tons a day of anything? I have. I used to move up to 20,000 tons of stuff a day and load it on trains. Iron ore. It's hard to conceal. Let's count now. 1,2,3 good, good. (Sorry to hear about your family. Everyone in my family is still alive since 1900. They were gifted with eternal life. Even my Grandfather who was gassed by the Germans in wwI). Ok still counting? 30 pounds of bones per person fair? OK. 30 Times 6 is 180. So for 6 million that is 180 million .. divide by 2000 and we get ... 90,000. Yup. Kill and cremate 2000 persons a day in Auschwitz and we get 500,000 pounds of gas bottles, 4,000 person hours of cremation, 6,000 person hours of gassing and perhaps 2000 person hours of body and waste removal. How many people and what kind of factory could do this? Don't trivialize. It's a logistical problem that I don't see people addressing. In tight surroundings you cannot get that many people to work. It is no more efficient to use more people. You would need 100 fit people working around the clock to approach the ammount of work necessary. do that. No problem? Not until you look at the scale of the facilities of the camps. They were not built for the job. The crematoriums would not handle it, the gassing facilities would not do the job. So we know that many people were killed in this manner. But that is the whole point isn't it? How many, where and how. To quote that you know that since there were so many in Russia after the war, and thus so many were killed is a red herring. Dates and completeness of your stats are all important. Gethering immigration figures and how the stats were compiled of course would take a lot of work. So you pontificate 6 million Jews missing since the war? And all killed by execution by Germans? Maybe. But lets subtract some real figures. 1.45 million died of Typhus in camps during the war. Yup. German gov't admits that. Red Cross even suggests it. Documented as hell. Ignored by all pro-holocausters, to put a name on that side. And how many bombed in camps and in Germany and by the Allies too all over Germany? And how many shot or starved on the Eastern Front? How many died of other natural causes perhaps accelerateed by starvation and malnutrition and lack of medicine in Europe? (In a perfect world 540,000 would have died anyway) How many fled Europe after the war and were not included in your post war census. How accurate was that by the way in counting? Refugee camps around the world? By Jews own accounts these dislocation numbers are very large. So let's play with figures. 1. natural causes 540,000 2. accelerated disease and starvation Europe 300,000 * 3. Bombing in Europe 100,000 4. Typhus in Camps 1.45 million * 5. Starvation on Eastern Front 500,000 * 6. Bombing and bomdardment of cities and towns in Russia 400,000 7. dislocation disparities and lack of statistics in Russia and Europe cause by wartime disorganization 1,000,000 (people who fled or hid) 8.Shot at Eastern and Western front by troops of both sides in "non-discriminatory" way 200,000 * So we have 4.65 million possible "missing Jews", very possible non holocaust Jewish victims of war and other deaths in WWII. We do not even need 10,000 killed in camps to get an impressive figure. My figure with asterisks are pretty fair. I would go so far as to say that they may be understatement. The ones without may be inflated or considered poor estimates. I have talked to Auschwitz survivors, Warsaw ghetto surviors and Dachau prison guards. Jewish people and former Nazis. The one place where I got to get opinions that few Jewish people get, was talking to prison camp guards candidly. I believe they would be reluctant to talk to Jewish people. Yes they had hid it. They were in hiding. I believed what the Jews had to say and I believed what the former guards had to say. The guards I talked to were simple ordinary men. And quite young at the time, as young as 16. They were not evil people that I could tell. But I believe that we are all capable of evil. I think few of us are honest enough to see it. I believe there was a war. I believe many were killed unessarily. I believe that both sides did that in varying amounts. I believe that there are Germans who have as good moral structure as you and I. Tere was discrimination against Jews. There was an evil suppressive police state in Germany. The theocracy and race orientation of Israel is somewhat similar in some respects and equally aurhoritarian in many respects. Their treatment of the Palestinians is quite similarto the German treatment of Jews in many respects. The scale is different. The reasons are somewhat different. The camps are a bit different. The barb wire fences are more modern. The soldiers guarding the Palestinians have more modern weapons. They do not use gas chambers. They do not slaughter for the same reasons or near as much. But much else is the same. At least Hitler considered moving all the Jews to czechoslovakia. The Jews will not even consider that kind of charity towards the Palestinians for a second. EC<:-}