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To: Rarebird who wrote (79290)11/13/2001 6:54:21 AM
From: d:oug  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 116752
 
Rarebird,

I posted to Zeev Hed on Mar 29, 2001 how i understood why
his opinion that peace in Israel becoming possible without
the means of warfare, but through a process of both sides
having leaders as he mentioned in his post to another person
here on an Silicon Investor thread, was in error as in false,
as in can not ever happen, as in zero chance.

As expected with the blame on my side based on my past posting
and replying to Zeev, Zeev did not reply to this.

You may if you so choose, and if so you should already know
that my English grammer is very poor since its of a lessor than
a highschool dropout level. About 1/2 down the post my thoughts
do firm up more than the top half for a reading delivery.

Bottom line for me in my understanding is that as you mentioned
in your post this is a reply to when you stated "DEATH To PLO"
to me is what Israel will accomplish during America's War on Terrorism,
and eventhought its not politicial correct for the talking heads on
mainstream t.v. to say so, until 9/11 the Unitied States keep Israel
in check from taking this option, and to completion. Just speculation
on my part, but when the 9/11 event in America is replaced with
what i posted on 9/11 or 9/12 that it will be in comparision to what
America gets as a follow-through, as a single pin prick of one drop
of blood, then Israel will accomplish what you wrote as "DEATH To PLO"
will take place. If so then i posted another Israel possibility for this
possible outcome and it is not nice, as in Israel wins all the Battles
and Israel wins the War, but Scorched Earth policy remains as an
option for the side who loses the War mentioned here, and yes they
have access to what is needed to carry out this simply because
the United States allowed nations degrees weaker in military strength
to develope and obtain weapons of mass destruction that are better
described as weapons to deny life on planet Earth to continue.

now on a semi light side

Are you a carrot, an egg, or a coffee bean?

longone Richard is the carrot
the egg is ???
and you are the coffee bean :o) which is a good

Message 15580360

d:oug



To: Rarebird who wrote (79290)11/13/2001 8:45:29 AM
From: c.hinton  Respond to of 116752
 
It sounds like you have things well in hand.No point in further US monatary and military support for Isreal.
Thank you for changing your writing style.It makes a much more pleasurable read.



To: Rarebird who wrote (79290)11/26/2001 11:19:57 PM
From: long-gone  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 116752
 
OT(?)
Tax vs. Draft Dodging
Both Have Merits
by Tibor R. Machan
A favorite public ideal for those on the political Left is taxation. They love it. They aren't really ashamed when considered to be “tax and spend” liberals, not really, even if they might hide from the fact for purposes of making voters send them into the corridors of power.

And as a corollary, most of those on the Left despise tax dodgers. These are, of course, the rich — for anyone who would wish to escape paying a bunch of taxes must be rich, right? Tax havens, too, are deemed to be complicit in helping the rich escape paying their “fair share” of taxes (meaning, as much as the government can possibly get away with taking from them and everyone else). The idea of a duty free purchase makes these folks quiver with dismay and righteous indignation — how dare these folks try to escape what Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. called “the price we pay for civilization!” (Au contraire: There are other ways to get civilization beside extorting people's resources from them!)

Of course, when some project doesn't suit the ideological tastes of the Left, dodging paying for it, let alone serving to bring it about, curiously turns out to be heroic. I recall back during the Viet Nam war members of the New Left, especially the young ones, were proudly escaping the military draft any way they could. And tax dodging, so as not to fund the war, was widely approved by Left Wing political champions.

Yet, if you come to think of it carefully, why protest tax dodging but not draft dodging? Or tax dodging so as to retain more of what belongs to oneself but not tax dodging to refuse to spend for something one disapproves? One's life should be one's own, not to be taken for projects one finds morally contemptible. Fine. But why is it OK to tax people for other projects they, too, find a waste and immoral?

Of course, the answer is that for many people it is wrong to do something if the goal for which it is done doesn't meet with their approval but quite OK to do it if they approve of the goal. So conservatives — you thought I'd forgotten about them, didn't you? — do not mind taxing and spending, so long the spending is on their pet projects — like a beefed up military, fighting gambling and other vices, faith based assistance projects, or proper educational reform. And, of course, liberals have no objection taking people's money for funding the arts and parks and whatever else suits their fancy. Neither would mind it much if people were conscripted for universal national service.

The bottom line is, sadly, that be it one or another kind of statist, violating the rights of individuals is just fine so long as the end is desirable. Robbing people for such goals is not only acceptable in certain rare circumstances — those standard desert island cases brought up in ethics texts that haven't yet heard about the uselessness of hard cases for coming up with general principles of conduct for human living. It should, the statist holds, be made routine.

The main reason is that the statist on neither the Right nor the Left values individual rights and sovereignty. For the sake of traditional objectives or for the revolution it is fine and dandy to sacrifice the lives and resources of individuals who may have other goals to support than those being foisted upon them.

Frankly, if you can dodge taxes, I say, so much power to you — indeed, I would argue it is your responsibility, just as it is to lock your doors and windows when you leave your home and your car so as to keep out the burglars. Certainly, if it is OK to try to escape the draft — via signing up for a college one is not really all that interested in attending (which is what used to go on when the draft was still the law), it is just as proper to take one's wealth off shore or hide it some other way so the government cannot steal it.

I should make it clear, as I have before, that there are plenty of good ideas for funding the legal system so that taxation, which is in any case a relic of the feudal era, is not necessary. This should be common sense: this is no different from there being far better ways to feed oneself than to steal food from others. If governments do something of value, they will be well paid for their services and will not need to extort the funds. But while extortion is the way they choose to lay their hands on funds, those of us who see an escape should use it — it is our responsibility to do so.

I hasten to say I am not advocating breaking the law — that is warranted in very special cases. But dodging taxes, like the military draft, via legal means is everyone's moral responsibility.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Machan, who teaches at Chapman University in Orange, California, advises Freedom Communications, Inc., on public policy matters. His most recent book is Initiative — Human Agency and Society (Hoover Institution Press, 2000). His email address is Tibor_R._Machan@link.freedom.com .
zolatimes.com



To: Rarebird who wrote (79290)12/4/2001 12:55:07 AM
From: long-gone  Read Replies (4) | Respond to of 116752
 
OT
Picked up anything on this? What was the MOSSAD doing in Mexico?

Verbatim Translation Of 'El
Heraldo de Mexico' News Story
From Mario Andrade
mario.mx@verizon.net
12-3-1

The following is a word-for-word translation of the article on "El Heraldo".

It's as direct and as accurate as I could get it. It's as close to the one
in Spanish as it will get. If you see any words that don't seem to really
belong there, it's preciselly because of that reason.

Best wishes,

Mario


Two Jews Arrested With Weapons And Grenades In San Lazaro
(Direct translation)

El Heraldo de Mexico
10-11-1

Maria de la Rosa Manuela Aguilar, communications director of the PGR, informed that there will be a hearing today (10/11/01) regarding the case of the apprehended suspects that were armed and allegedly carrying explosives.

The Ministerio Publico (District Attorney) authorized the transfer of the suspects arrested in the House of Representatives to installations of the Judicial Federal Police in a heavily guarded and bulletproof truck. The transfer took place on schedule and without hesitation; therefore, the two individuals were able to present their declaration to the authorities last night.

To that regard, Felipe Calderon Hinojosa, president of the Joint Congressional Political Assembly in the House of Representatives admitted that there,s a vulnerability and a lack of security in the facility. He announced that security measures would be increased in San Lazaro starting today.

He stated that he personally witnessed the arrest and saw the weapons; however, he refused to provide any additional details until he presents his testimony to the authorities.

The suspects were found by ex-sugarcane workers waiting for a congressional hearing in the legislative palace, whom Gersson Smike photographed numerous times until the protesting unionists noticed that he was armed with a sophisticated Glock 9 mm pistol, made with plastic material and very easy to smuggle.

The unionists apprehended the suspects and later turned them in to the security staff in the House of Representatives. They were later transferred to the basement of the building where they waited for the "Ministerio Publico Federal (Federal Attorney General) to assume jurisdiction of the case.

Juan Ignacio Cabrera, communications director, and Luis Alarcon, head of security of the congress, confirmed the apprehension of Gersson Smike and Ben Zui. Additionally, they provided the details regarding the handgun and the artifact that were carrying when the arrest took place.

On the other hand, Gersson Smike claimed to be a Mexican national; however, he admitted to be a former member of the Israeli military. A representative from a security company by the name of "Desarrollo de Sistemas de Seguridad Privada (Private Security Systems Development) stated that he was one of his employees. He also stated that his visit to San Lazaro was business related and to offer the company,s services.

However, according to the official reports of security personnel, both suspects were seen inside the legislative facility on Tuesday (THE DAY BEFORE THE ARREST), when then, they claimed to be photographers. ___

NOTE: One crucial difference between the previous articles and the one by the newspaper "El Heraldo de Mexico" (which happens to be Mexico's leading newspaper) is that it mentions that suspects were seen by congress security personnel the day before they were arrested with the alleged explosives.

When the suspects first went to the congress (on Tuesday the 9th), they claimed to be photographers. The following day (Wednesday the 10th), when they were arrested, one of them claimed to be a security guard and the other suspect turned out to be in the country illegally. Why did Gersson lie to security personnel (the day before) when he claimed to be a photographer?

This article can be found (in Spanish) by accessing the following link. It,s on page 3 of 7 (middle of the page). The headline title is "En San Lazaro, detienen a dos judios con armas y granadas". The PDF file is about 2.3 MB and the server might be a little slow (it takes about a minute to download with fast connections).

148.245.32.133


TIMELINE OF EVENTS

October 09, 2001
The two suspects took pictures inside the congress. They told security
guards they were
photographers.

October 10, 2001
The two suspects were caught inside the Congress with the briefcase
containing the
alleged bomb making material.

October 11, 2001
Mexico's newspapers, radio and television report the story.

October 12, 2001

If the bombing was going to go forward, it probably would have been
carried out on COLUMBUS DAY, October 12. Mexico celebrates Columbus Day no matte what day of the week it might fall on. A bombing would have been very symbolic ... a blow against Western civilization.
rense.com
More Comments And Analysis
On The Mexico Congress
Bomb Story
By Megan Goldin
12-2-1

The following postings are from the Pravda.ru bbs Forum
bbs.newsfromrussia.com


bryanth798
posted 11-28-2001 20:43

I read the Mexican papers, because I go to Mexico every day, where I work. I remember very clearly when this story came out and it was big scandal in Mexico, and it was covered by the papers there every day, plus it was a lead story on the main TV channels, TV Azteca and Televisa. Anyone who was in Mexico at the time knows this is so.

So I would say this: anyone who denies this is has an agenda and is trying to cover up pthe truth. All of this cheap talk about racism is typical reactionary bullshit.

It was a front page story on practically every newspaper in the country, and it was commented on by columnists in the op-ed pages. Suddenly the story just died, about the time that the suspects were released by the Mexican attorney general who gave no explanation for his reasons, but who was obviously acting under pressure from the Israeli embassy.


bryanth798
posted 11-29-2001 11:16

This is from El Universal dated Oct 11, 2001. This is the same story I read in the Diario de Chihuahua. This reporting went on for several days. This is a followup story reporting that the claims fo the Israelis that that they were licenced to carry arms and that they worked for a security firm didn't check out, that these claims were false:

Detenido en San L?zaro tiene licencia para arma El guardia de seguridad cuenta con un permiso expedido por la Defensa. Carece PGR de datos del supuesto ex militar israel? Sauar Ben Zvi. No figura en los registros a nivel local o federal de empresas de seguridad privada

Jorge Alejandro Medell?n

El guardia de seguridad Salvador Guersson Smecke, detenido hace dos d?as en el interior de la C?mara de Diputados junto con el supuesto ex militar israel? Sauar Ben Zvi, cuenta con una licencia para portar un arma calibre 9mm. expedida por la Secretar?a de la Defensa Nacional (SDN), con vigencia del 31 de diciembre de este a?o. Se trata de una licencia "individual" tramitada ante la SDN a principios de este a?o y concedida por la dependencia hace unos meses. Fuentes de la Procuradur?a General de la Rep?blica se?alaron que Salvador Guersson es el ?nico de los dos detenidos que est? debidamente registrado ante la Secretar?a de Seguridad P?blica.

"Pero de la otra persona, que no estaba armada, no tenemos datos claros y seguimos investigando", afirmaron.

De hecho, EL UNIVERSAL confirm? que el nombre de Sauar Ben Zvi no figura en ninguno de los registros a nivel local o federal de empresas de seguridad privada.

Visto bueno de la SDN

Con la aprobaci?n de la Defensa Nacional, Guersson Smecke acudi? junto con el representante legal de la empresa Desarrollo de Sistemas de Seguridad Privada a la Direcci?n de Registro de Empresas de Seguridad Privada de la Secretar?a de Seguridad P?blica (SSP) para informar sobre el otorgamiento del permiso individual.

Dicha empresa est? registrada ante esa direcci?n con el n?mero 486 desde hace poco m?s de un a?o y funciona de manera normal, cumpliendo ante la ley con todos los requisitos de operatividad exigidos, incluso el de las solicitudes para partaci?n de armas de manera colectiva o individual.

En el caso de dicha empresa, el permiso se otorg? de manera individual a determinados guardias de seguridad. La SDN accedi? ya que cumpl?an todos los requisitos exigidos.

Mientras tanto, la Procuradur?a General de la Rep?blica (PGR) contin?a investigando a los dos detenidos dentro de la averiguaci?n previa y AP/1115/B-2001.

*********************
El Universal has a feature where you can get the entire editon by dates. at
el-universal.com.mx
**************
This discussion started several weeks ago here after someone posted a story from DEBKA files claiming that 10 Syrian terrorists were caught trying to blow up the Mexican congress and that they were planning to kill Fox while they were at it. When some of us pointed out that this was a new twist on the well-known story (in Mexico) of these Israelis, we were all called Nazis and liars and all of the usual taunts.


bryanth798
posted 11-29-2001 11:23

Correction: This is one of the stories I read in the the Heraldo, but it isn't the same one I was thinking of. This is one that resulted after the coverup started!


downunderdude
posted 11-29-2001 11:36
So what are we suggesting? I fail to see what the Israeli's would want in
Mexico?!?!? It is a third world nation no? (No offence) Yet, I fail to see
what they would want. I am not denying that the news report is true..or
factual..I am just at a loss to describe what they would want to do in
Mexican parliament?<br>


bryanth798
posted 11-29-2001 11:58

Anyway, I would like to know how a statement that "According to statements
by elements of the legislative security staff, the suspects carried arms,
explosives, nine grenades, bullets and a detonator" could be so easily
reversed. That sure looks like a coverup to me!


bryanth798
posted 11-29-2001 12:30

Okay, here is one of the original stories, at cronica.com.mx

And it does state "Como se recordar?, Sar Ben Zui, fue detenido, junto con otro sujeto, cuando ambos iban presuntamente armados al interior de la C?mara de Diputados.

"Seg?n versiones de elementos de seguridad del recinto legislativo, los sospechosos portaban armas, barras explosivas, nueve granadas, cartuchos ?tiles y un cargador."

- which I concur with the above translation which says "As will be remembered, Sar Ben Zui Was detained, with another subject, when both were allegedly armed inside the House of Representatives.

"According to statements by elements of the legislative security staff, the suspects carried arms, explosives, nine grenades, bullets and a detonator."

How they could turn around and say that they only had one pistol and that it was registered and then not make any statements as to how this is completely contradictory with what had been reported earlier - this points to a blatant coverup - and I would like to see some better explanation than these cheap accusations of a racist plot. There was a plot afoot alright: a plot to plant a bomb!

Let's talk about a motive now, why don't we. The motive was to get the Mexican people, who have been lampooning Fox and Castaneda mercilessly for their declarations that they were standing shoulder to shoulder with Bush, to swing around against the muslim world, and they thought this would be just the ticket. It seems that the Reichstag fire mentality is really big with the Mossad these days!

Also, let's get back to the DEBKA files story that attempted to use this incident as the basis for a complete disinformation ploy. How come all of Israel's defenders on the boards here jumped into that stupid polemic with both feet - saying that DEBKA was right and that the idea that the original story said the terrorists were Israelis and not Syrians was more racist propaganda? Those people have no regard for the truth. They want to lie as much as they can get by with, and when they get caught, they start screaming about racism.

Now this version that is reported in Cronica, which I went to the trouble to find the original complete story with the link and everything, is one version of the same story that was on television and in all of the major papers complete with editorials as the drama played out. The players who were there - the people who caught them, for instance - were interviewed. It was on television. TV Azteca and Televisa. There could hardly have been any racist plot to give Israel a black eye for this. But it would not be unusual for there to be a subsequent coverup and whitewash, and disappearance fo the story from the news, which is exactly what happened. What is clear, however, is that a very unresolved contradiction arose between the initial reports and the results of the whitewash, and that the DEBKA files attempt to salvage something from this looks suspicious indeed, as if they decided that they would at least try and sqeeze some propaganda benefit out of their little failed effort on the part of the Mossad.

I remember reading several stories and editorials in the Heraldo de Chihuahua and the Diario de Chihuahua at the time, although since this was a month ago, it is hard to remember what all was actually said, but there was a point when a whitewash emerged, followed by a complete cessation in reporting or commentary.

Meanwhile, while you are surfing Cronica's website, check out the message boards and see what public opinion in Mexico is really like concerning the war, in spite of what Fox and Castaneda are saying! You might have a look at what Mexicans think of Israel while you are at it. These items will give you some clues as to what the Mossad's motives were in this attempt of theirs.


Zhid_X
posted 11-29-2001 12:45

"http://www.indymedia.org.il/imc/israel/webcast/8606.html" indymedia discussion of validity links to discussion of credibility of information on Israeli indymedia site.


bryanth798
posted 11-29-2001 12:49

This is an editorial from the period, which points to the fact of a coverup. The editors are saying that they want to know the truth about why someone was caught inside the seante armed and with spy equipment and no explanation, and they aslo want to know who is protecting them and who is covering up the facts, and suggesting that if the truth came out it would be an emabassment. This is from the front page of the Cronica on Oct 12.:

Qu? pas? con el agente extranjero que estaba armado en la C?mara de Diputados? No es cosa menor: fotografiar dirigentes ca?eros, portar aparatos electr?nicos para espionaje, y una tremenda pistola 9 mil?metros al cinto... en la sede del Congreso. A cualquier mexicano que lo encuentren as?, estar?a hundido. Este se?or, ?no? ?De qu? polic?a es? ?Para qui?n trabaja? ?Qui?n lo protege? D?ganlo, aunque eso apene a los partidos en la C?mara.

***************** Okay I am going to answer downunda's question:

Shortly after the 9/11 incident, Gallup took a poll in a a lot of countries, and it turned out that in all of Latin America, support was very low for the planned US war effort. Mexico had the lowest margin of support, with only 2% of the population in favor of a war. This probably dropped to even less than that shortly after the poll was taken when Mexican papers revealed the connections between the Bush and Bin Laden families, and much hay was made of that by editorialists.

Meanwhile, Mexican president Vicente Fox and foreign minister Jorge Castaneda (whose mother is Jewish, by the way) declared that Mexico was behind Bush and that they would even send troops if Bush wanted them to. This was met with outrage in Mexico, and since Mexico is actually the most influential country in Latin America, all of the reacting taken place must have been seen as a bad sign for those who had a vested interest in the progress of the war party.

This has been discussed as the only possible reason for the attempted terrorist act on the part of the Israelis.

There can be no sweeping under the rug of the fact that this was widely reported and that a lot of editorializing took place and which direction the editorials took. This is what I have been describing.

Mexico may be a "third world country", but it has a huge border with the US and Hispanics are the largest minority in the US, of which Mexicans make up the largest block. Latin America is rather homogenous, with Mexico being the cultural and public opinion giant of the Latin world, in spite of the disparaging assessment it may get from its northern neighbor. drutherford posted 11-29-2001 15:16 Talk about your "Get out of jail free cards". Having bombs and guns on their persons wasn't quite enough evidence to hold them, I guess.

The American watchdog press apparently missed this one. Again. Nothing slips by the American Press.

Could Israelis have possibly been involved in the WTC attack as well?????

From www.rense.com

Mossad Agents Arrested In Attempt To Bomb
Mexican Congress
11-26-1

From the PGR (Mexican Department Of Justice) official web site comes an interesting story.

As reported in La Vox De Aztlan, two men, one of them a former Israeli Colonel and Mossad agent, were arrested INSIDE the Mexican congress carrying 9mm pistols and dynamite, but were released following intense pressure from the Israeli Embassy.

Army General and Head of the PGR Releases Two Israelis Arrested With Guns and Explosives Inside the Mexican Congress By Ernesto Cienfuegos La Voz de Aztlan October 15, 2001

Read the rest of the article here:

rense.com

"What were the Israelis up to? We think we know. The Vicente Fox government has been very careful of involving Mexico in a war against Islam. The Mexican population as well as the two major opposition political parties, the PRI and the PRD will not allow it. President Bush and the U.S. Zionists want Mexico fully involved in the war principally because if things get tough in the middle east and the oil rich Arabs leave the coalition, the U.S. military machine is going to need alternative sources of oil and PEMEX is just across the border. We believe that the two Zionists terrorist were going to blow up the Mexican Congress. The second phase was to mobilize both the Mexican and US press to blame Osama bin Laden. Most likely then Mexico would declare war on Afghanistan as well, commit troops and all the oil it could spare to combat Islamic terrorism."

Comment from a Rense reader

From Mario Andrade
mario.mx@verizon.net
11-26-1

Hello Jeff,

I want to congratulate you in every way for posting the articles on your website. When I read the article about the Mossad agents caught trying to bomb the Mexican congress, I almost jumped out of my chair. I was SHOCKED. I couldn't believe it, so I went to the PGR website and verified it.

IT'S ALL TRUE! It's 100% accurate! You've nailed it! The guys that learned about this should get an award for reporting it. This proves your suspicions about Mossad involvement, or at least knowledge about 9-11. Do you remember the group of Israelis taking pictures and video from a roof top as the twin towers were burning to the ground? I could be wrong, but I believed you mentioned that during a Barry Chamish's appearance in your program.

WHERE ARE THE MAJOR NEWS NETWORKS ON THIS? They are all too busy promoting the Time-Warner-AOL-CNN Harry Potter movie or reporting on "the anthrax scare" (they call it scare because they're the ones scaring people). It's amazing how we can better rely on websites like yours for accurate news. It seems like we need to dig the truth out on our own all the time.

This media blackout is nothing less than the New World Order at work. Here we have two Israelis with explosives, grenades and guns caught inside the legislative chamber of the Mexican congress, and yet, NOTHING is mentioned in the news; not even in Mexico.

Without a doubt, these two suspects will be released. The PGR (Attorney General) website in Mexico does not list in "plain language" the charges for the suspects. It lists the "penal codes". They are the following: Violation of articles 123 and 143 of the General Law of Population in accordance with the sixth and seventh dash 1, 8, 9, and 13 of the federal penal code. This means that unless you're a lawyer in Mexico, you won't have any clue as for what they mean. This is how they let criminals go free all the time. Those codes could be bogus or made up, but the population is so dumbed down and ignorant that they will buy this without bothering to question it.

THIS IS WHERE WE'RE HEADING IN AMERICA: TOTAL IGNORANCE AND SUBMISSIVENESS OF THE POPULATION AND TOTAL CONTROL OF THOSE IN POWER.

Please keep up the excellent work and thanks for informing us about what's really going on.

Best wishes,

Mario Andrade

The PGR website page
pgr.gob.mx

Systran translation page
systranlinks.com

Aztlan.net story

Zionist Terrorists Arrested
Inside Mexican Congress

MOSSAD Colonel Salvador Guersson Smecke and Saur Ben Zvi were armed and
carrying bomb materials

Read it here
aztlan.net


greyzone
posted 11-29-2001 16:14

The page from the Procuraduria General de la Republica proves the story to be true. Now it is very sad, that for some this story must have been invented by hate groups. And is not accepted as true, because it deos not fit into ones explanations of what is going on. THIS is known as fascist thinking.


bryanth798
posted 11-29-2001 21:41

That is exactly what I am saying. The people who initially reported that had bombs in their possession were the security people there at the Mexican Congress who arrested them. Therefor, this evidence would have had to go into the report wherin the initial charges were based, and that cannot be destroyed or altered. Any revisions and disclaimers which pretend to deny or circumvent that have to be patently false.

So, the story from Oct 11, 2001 is indeed a coverup, and the initial storie and editorials reflect the facts.


bryanth798
posted 11-30-2001 07:55

Ben Zvi was probably held for "possession of arms or explosives for the exclusive use of the military". I will look into that and see what those infractions are. My brother in law is a Mexican lawyer and he fights those cases all the time, so he will know what that is. That explains the language on the PRG site where it says he was "consigned to the judge of the first instance". If he were not charged with something that would allow him to make bail, he would have just bailed out. If not, he would have to wait for a hearing, and then he would likely get and "auto formal de prision" which is where you are held without bail.

So, if he was charged as such, as it would appear, then he did have the things that the guards in the senate building stated he had. If he got out of jail in spite of that, then this is highly irregular.


bryanth798
posted 12-01-2001 04:12

"Violation of articles 123 and 143 of the General Law of Population in accordance with the sixth and seventh dash 1, 8, 9, and 13 of the federal penal code."

I looked these up on a CD that contains Mexican laws at my brother-in-law's law office. The only one of these statutes mentioned that concerns an actual infraction is the article 123, which is concerned with being in the country illegally, not having entered on any kind of visa. In other words, Ben Zvi was smuggled into the country somehow, and did not go through any sort of Mexican immigration checkpoint either at a border or at an airport for instance, and he had no papers on file indicating how he came into the country, and this is a crime. Article 143 states that the prosecution of the crime has to be under the guidelines of Mexican immigration statutes, and the other clauses cited are simply adminstrative details.

So, the only thing that Ben Zvi, then, is actually charged with is the illegal and clandestine entry into the country.

My brother-in-law is of the opinion that this is a "jalada", as he calls it, which is where, in this case anyway, a prosecution document is substituted in the file in place of the original, the substitute being designed to get the suspects off, but at the same time to give cause for their having arrested in the first place, thus covering the tails of the police and prosecutors.

Again, I would point out that the biggest inconsistency is that they were initially arrested by the guards at the Mexican senate, San Lazaro, and that it was reported that they had "two 9mm pistols, nine grenades, explosives, three detonators and 58 bullets", such that the status as reported by the PGR that Guersson Smecke had a pistol which was duly registered and therefor he was released, while Ben Zvi is declared not to have been armed is simply not explained away very easily by these theories that these reports just arose as a result of some speculation or some racist reasons. They were reported because they had such things, and the denials in the press that occurred later and the omission in the PGR report are as a result of pressure and bribery.

Another report surfaced at one point - I have not seen it myself, but my BIL told me about it - wherin it was reported that, in order to give an explanation as to what, exactly, they were doing in San Lazaro in the first place - they are reported to have said that they were going to demonstrate to the Mexican authorities that their security was inadequate. The idea was to try and get some kind of contract for providing security. One inconsistancy with that is that they were not able to show any record of their having contacted anyone or made any reports concerning such a plan, indicating that this cover story was made up after the fact. Another inconsistancy is this: Why would a person who was inside the country illegally - someone who had been smuggeled into the country unknown to the authorities - be involved in some proposed business with the government itself? On the other hand, if Ben Zvi was in fact a terrorist, he would have planned on being smuggled out just as he had been smuggled in, therefor leaving no record of his having come or gone.


Arbus
posted 12-01-2001 13:15

Old news, but I will leave some additional comments.

This story is true, it is not a hoax. It was first reported by NOTIMEX, Mexico's official news agency. And later confirmed officially by the PGR (a government ministry).

The israeli vice-minister of foreign relations appeared in Mexico City a couple of days later. The president and his top advisors were in a visit to Europe. Then the "cover-up" started and no one has ever heard of it since. Closed doors since the incident at the Israeli embassy and a veil of silence, of course.

The "official" excuse was that these two israelies had a meeting to sell security services to Congress... But of course, 9mm armed salemen!!! BTW One of the israelies DID NOT speak spanish, at all!!!

Why Mexico? Well, one reason was mentioned here and that was support of the war and further wars, the door to latinamerica. Another reason is that Mexico's economy is stable and has very high dollar reserves and it is U.S. second trading partner. (The U.S. hot-air filled economy is recessing or deflating of course). It shares a 2,000 mile border. And the main reason is of course Oil and possibly even Uranium.

Mexico suported a lot of the labor during WW-II as well as much of the oil needed in the U.S. Remember that this all happened before Russia became "friends" with Bush.

About a week ago, a close friend received an e-mail from a congress person thanking him for the information provided about the Glock 9mm and the Israeli defense and mossad service. As well as an article about mossad high tech gadgets that are meant to look like useless trinkets.

The e-mail reads:

Subject: Re: CORRUPCION EN LA PGR
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 13:11:17 -0600

Estimado simpatizante, no sabemos tu nombre y nos gustaria saberlo, con relaci?n a tu an?lisis, te lo agradezco y te informa que ya se a turnado al area de analisis pol?tico. Los resultados de este analisis junto con tu informaci?n ser?n pr?ximamente publicados en la p?gina del partido en icono de "La VERDAD". Esperamos que este interes por indagar la verdad continue en tu vida. Recuerda que la demanda por la verdad es una cultura del ciudano Nacionalista responsable. Felicidades por tu gran inter?s por M?xico. ATTE. Dip Gustavo Riojas recordando que "La Patria es Primero" ___

It roughly says that he would like to have more information on the "informant" who provided the annalysis (wouldn't we all) and that the annalysis and other reports and witnesses records will be posted at the party's web site, soon.

All reports and archives are in Mexico City and witnesses were dissmised by officials as "trouble-making peasants".

The congress person belongs to psn.org.mx a minor political party in Mexico.


bryanth798
posted 12-01-2001 20:16

Did DEBKA pull their spurious report from the website?

I would assume that they had it filed under the "Americas" section, but if you go to that page, you can see that there are reports dating from Oct 13, around the time of the San Lazaro incident, and then they jump to a report on Oct 22, but the San Lazaro incident story is not there! As many of you might recall, the DEBKA story - which mentioned 10 Syrian terrorsits on their way to blow up the Mexican congress and assasinate Fox - was copy/pasted onto this board, and when some of us reported that it was an altered version of the real story, we were attacked by the Israeli lobby here as racist nazis and so forth (similarly to the above posts by Zhid_X and Ensign Expendible).

Why did DEBKA pull the account from their website? Anyone have any theories on that? Since much of their other material is just as spurious, why did they find it necessary to do that?

On another note, this may be old news in a sense, but it is very important, because it is all about Israeli terrorists operating right in America's back yard with a view to blowing up the congress of a neighboring state! This certainly brings the Reichstag event notion around almost full circle!

Also, to add something to what you just said: How can it be that some "security experts" send a guy who does not even speak the language to make a proposal somehow that is not programed or announced or recorded in any way, and then it turns out he is in the country illegally and he is arrested and charged with illegal entry - and this particular is documented and on file and stated explicitly on the PGR website? This shows the extremely spurious nature of the coverup, which was hastily conconcted in a piecemeal fashion designed to cover the tails of the Israelis themselves, the arresting officers - both those of the San Lazaro guard and the Policia Judicial Federal who would have have brought them to the agente the ministerio publico - it would have to cover the tail of the agente de ministerio publico for bringing some charge that would have bound them over to the juez de la primer instancia, and it would have to cover the tail of the PGR. So that is why they left them with the one charge of illegal entry on Ben Zvi. But the effect of that is that it further blows a hole in their cover story of the supposed proposed "security contract".
rense.com



To: Rarebird who wrote (79290)12/17/2001 7:09:30 PM
From: long-gone  Respond to of 116752
 
He says it better than did I, then he does have the benefit of the 20-20 vision provided and proven only through the eyeglasses of history:

Key quote:
"Rush Limbaugh, who feasts on Clinton’s sins, talks as if the terrorist attacks themselves were Clinton’s legacy. That’s stretching a point, but the gravity of those attacks does make Clinton seem especially frivolous. We feel he somehow should have seen them coming. He did nothing to prepare us for the more serious world we now find ourselves in. He gave us eight years of Ferris Bueller, and now we face Godzilla.

Looking back, it’s clear that Clinton missed all the omens: the bombings of the World Trade Center, American embassies, a military barracks, the USS Cole. Of course most of us also dismissed these as minor events rather than portents, but we expect a president, with all the intelligence at his disposal, to have some special insight. The real world wasn’t quite real to Clinton; it was just a stage on which he could enact his theatrical gestures and bow to the applause.

For all his shortcomings, George W. Bush imparts the feeling that the United States is under adult supervision again. He is the same age as Clinton, and he’s another Baby Boomer who avoided Vietnam, but he seems to take his responsibilities seriously. He lacks Clinton’s star quality as well as his political adroitness; but by the same token he has none of Clinton’s clever egotism."...
lewrockwell.com



To: Rarebird who wrote (79290)1/25/2002 12:53:40 PM
From: long-gone  Respond to of 116752
 
here you go rarebird the extreme right & the extreme left - both frauds:

Wednesday January 23 9:55 PM ET
N.Carolina Movement Leader Sentenced

ASHEVILLE, N.C. (AP) - A leader of North Carolina's so-called patriot movement was sentenced Wednesday to more than 12 years in federal prison for fraud, threatening judges and trying to pay off debts and back taxes with fake checks.

Peter Stern, 58, was convicted on seven federal charges, including conspiracy, obstructing the Internal Revenue Service (news - web sites) and threatening to kidnap two federal judges.

U.S. District Judge Lacy Thornburg sentenced Stern to 151 months in prison and ordered him to pay the IRS more than $95,000 in outstanding taxes.
dailynews.yahoo.com

Wednesday January 23 8:51 PM ET
Extradited Israeli Pleads Guilty
By LARRY NEUMEISTER, Associated Press Writer

NEW YORK (AP) - A Hasidic community founder who fled to Israel after being accused of stealing from federal anti-poverty programs pleaded guilty Wednesday to conspiracy and mail fraud.

While the defendant, Chaim Berger, 75, was fighting extradition last year, then-President Clinton (news - web sites) reduced the prison sentences of four other New Square community leaders convicted in the scheme.

Federal prosecutors are investigating whether the commutations are linked to the village's overwhelming vote for Hillary Clinton (news - web sites) in the 2000 Senate race.

Berger admitted in court he mailed federal aid applications for schools and businesses that didn't exist or weren't qualified. The aid programs funded housing, businesses and education for low-income residents.

Berger was extradited last August on the 1997 indictment. After claiming Israeli citizenship, he argued that its laws allowed extradition only if the prosecuting country allows the prison time to be served in Israel. Israel's Supreme Court ruled 4-3 against Berger.

He could face up to 61/2 years in prison. Sentencing was set for April 26.

Hillary Clinton traveled to New Square during her Senate campaign. She has said she attended a December 2000 meeting in the White House with supporters of clemency for the men but played no part in her husband's decision.

New Square, about 35 miles north of New York City, gave Hillary Clinton 1,400 votes to 12 for her Republican rival, Rick Lazio (news - web sites).

The four men were convicted in 1999 of misappropriating $40 million in federal aid. Prosecutors said the men used the money to enrich their community and themselves; defense attorneys said the men misunderstood the rules and were simply helping their community.

The original sentences of between 30 months and 78 months were reduced by the former president to 24 months to 30 months. Three of the men have been released, and the fourth is scheduled to be released May 12.
dailynews.yahoo.com



To: Rarebird who wrote (79290)3/9/2002 6:49:43 PM
From: Richnorth  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 116752
 
To: Rarebird a.k.a Eclectus a.k.a Mr. "Agree-to-Disagree":-

Israelis should be prepared to settle their differences with the Arabs. The Biblical tales that have sustained the Jews and Israelis for centuries are now seen to have shaky foundations! or are myths altogether!

March 9, 2002

As Rabbis Face Facts, Bible Tales Are Wilting

By MICHAEL MASSING
nytimes.com

Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.

Such startling propositions — the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years — have gained wide acceptance among non- Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity — until now.

The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called "Etz Hayim" ("Tree of Life" in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine document.

"When I grew up in Brooklyn, congregants were not sophisticated about anything," said Rabbi Harold Kushner, the author of "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" and a co-editor of the new book. "Today, they are very sophisticated and well read about psychology, literature and history, but they are locked in a childish version of the Bible."

"Etz Hayim," compiled by David Lieber of the University of Judaism in Los Angeles, seeks to change that. It offers the standard Hebrew text, a parallel English translation (edited by Chaim Potok, best known as the author of "The Chosen"), a page-by-page exegesis, periodic commentaries on Jewish practice and, at the end, 41 essays by prominent rabbis and scholars on topics ranging from the Torah scroll and dietary laws to ecology and eschatology.

These essays, perused during uninspired sermons or Torah readings at Sabbath services, will no doubt surprise many congregants. For instance, an essay on Ancient Near Eastern Mythology," by Robert Wexler, president of the University of Judaism in Los Angeles, states that on the basis of modern scholarship, it seems unlikely that the story of Genesis originated in Palestine. More likely, Mr. Wexler says, it arose in Mesopotamia, the influence of which is most apparent in the story of the Flood, which probably grew out of the periodic overflowing of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. The story of Noah, Mr. Wexler adds, was probably borrowed from the Mesopotamian epic Gilgamesh.

Equally striking for many readers will be the essay "Biblical Archaeology," by Lee I. Levine, a professor at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. "There is no reference in Egyptian sources to Israel's sojourn in that country," he writes, "and the evidence that does exist is negligible and indirect." The few indirect pieces of evidence, like the use of Egyptian names, he adds, "are far from adequate to corroborate the historicity of the biblical account."

Similarly ambiguous, Mr. Levine writes, is the evidence of the conquest and settlement of Canaan, the ancient name for the area including Israel. Excavations showing that Jericho was unwalled and uninhabited, he says, "clearly seem to contradict the violent and complete conquest portrayed in the Book of Joshua." What's more, he says, there is an "almost total absence of archaeological evidence" backing up the Bible's grand descriptions of the Jerusalem of David and Solomon.

The notion that the Bible is not literally true "is more or less settled and understood among most Conservative rabbis," observed David Wolpe, a rabbi at Sinai Temple in Los Angeles and a contributor to "Etz Hayim." But some congregants, he said, "may not like the stark airing of it." Last Passover, in a sermon to 2,200 congregants at his synagogue, Rabbi Wolpe frankly said that "virtually every modern archaeologist" agrees "that the way the Bible describes the Exodus is not the way that it happened, if it happened at all." The rabbi offered what he called a "litany of disillusion" about the narrative, including contradictions, improbabilities, chronological lapses and the absence of corroborating evidence. In fact, he said, archaeologists digging in the Sinai have "found no trace of the tribes of Israel — not one shard of pottery."

The reaction to the rabbi's talk ranged from admiration at his courage to dismay at his timing to anger at his audacity. Reported in Jewish publications around the world, the sermon brought him a flood of letters accusing him of undermining the most fundamental teachings of Judaism. But he also received many messages of support. "I can't tell you how many rabbis called me, e- mailed me and wrote me, saying, `God bless you for saying what we all believe,' " Rabbi Wolpe said. He attributes the "explosion" set off by his sermon to "the reluctance of rabbis to say what they really believe."

Before the introduction of "Etz Hayim," the Conservative movement relied on the Torah commentary of Joseph Hertz, the chief rabbi of the British Commonwealth. By 1936, when it was issued, the Hebrew Bible had come under intense scrutiny from scholars like Julius Wellhausen of Germany, who raised many questions about the text's authorship and accuracy. Hertz, working in an era of rampant anti-Semitism and of Christian efforts to demonstrate the inferiority of the "Old" Testament to the "New," dismissed all doubts about the integrity of the text.

Maintaining that no people would have invented for themselves so "disgraceful" a past as that of being slaves in a foreign land, he wrote that "of all Oriental chronicles, it is only the Biblical annals that deserve the name of history."

The Hertz approach had little competition until 1981, when the Union of American Hebrew Congregations, the official arm of Reform Judaism, published its own Torah commentary. Edited by Rabbi Gunther Plaut, it took note of the growing body of archaeological and textual evidence that called the accuracy of the biblical account into question. The "tales" of Genesis, it flatly stated, were a mix of "myth, legend, distant memory and search for origins, bound together by the strands of a central theological concept." But Exodus, it insisted, belonged in "the realm of history." While there are scholars who consider the Exodus story to be "folk tales," the commentary observed, "this is a minority view."

Twenty years later, the weight of scholarly evidence questioning the Exodus narrative had become so great that the minority view had become the majority one.

Not among Orthodox Jews, however. They continue to regard the Torah as the divine and immutable word of God. Their most widely used Torah commentary, known as the Stone Edition (1993), declares in its introduction "that every letter and word of the Torah was given to Moses by God."

Lawrence Schiffman, a professor at New York University and an Orthodox Jew, said that "Etz Hayim" goes so far in accepting modern scholarship that, without realizing it, it ends up being in "nihilistic opposition" to what Conservative Jews stand for. He noted, however, that most of the questions about the Bible's accuracy had been tucked away discreetly in the back. "The average synagogue-goer is never going to look there," he said.

Even some Conservative rabbis feel uncomfortable with the depth of the doubting. "I think the basic historicity of the text is valid and verifiable," said Susan Grossman, the rabbi of Beth Shalom Congregation in Columbia, Md., and a co-editor of "Etz Hayim." As for the mounting archaeological evidence suggesting the contrary, Rabbi Grossman said: "There's no evidence that it didn't happen. Most of the `evidence' is evidence from silence."

"The real issue for me is the eternal truths that are in the text," she added. "How do we apply this hallowed text to the 21st century?" One way, she said, is to make it more relevant to women. Rabbi Grossman is one of many women who worked on "Etz Hayim," in an effort to temper the Bible's heavily patriarchal orientation and make the text more palatable to modern readers. For example, the passage in Genesis that describes how the aged Sarah laughed upon hearing God say that she would bear a son is traditionally interpreted as a laugh of incredulity. In its commentary, however, "Etz Hayim" suggests that her laughter "may not be a response to the far- fetched notion of pregnancy at an advanced age, but the laughter of delight at the prospect of two elderly people resuming marital intimacy."

In a project of such complexity, there were inevitably many points of disagreement. But Rabbi Kushner says the only one that eluded resolution concerned Leviticus 18:22: "Do not lie with a male as one lies with a woman; it is an abhorrence." "We couldn't come to a formulation that we could all be comfortable with," the rabbi said. "Some people felt that homosexuality is wrong. We weren't prepared to embrace that as the Conservative position. But at the same time we couldn't say this is a mentality that has been disproved by contemporary biology, for not everyone was prepared to go along with that." Ultimately, the editors settled on an anodyne compromise, noting that the Torah's prohibitions on homosexual relations "have engendered considerable debate" and that Conservative synagogues should "welcome gay and lesbian congregants in all congregational activities."

Since the fall, when "Etz Hayim" was issued, more than 100,000 copies have been sold. Eventually, it is expected to become the standard Bible in the nation's 760 Conservative synagogues.

Mark S. Smith, a professor of Bible and Near Eastern Studies at New York University, noted that the Hertz commentary had lasted 65 years. "That's incredible," he said. "If `Etz Hayim' isn't around for 50 years or more, I'd be surprised."

Its longevity, however, may depend on the pace of archaeological discovery.

nytimes.com