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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Yogizuna who wrote (39651)	11/29/2001 2:54:26 PM
From: The Philosopher	Respond to of 82486

But to pretend or truly believe there were no other alternatives available at all to using such weapons of mass destruction, is completely beyond me and I do not buy it at all. Of course there were alternatives. Nobody that I know has said otherwise. We could have treated the Island of Japan just like all the other islands of the Pacific. Bombarded their heavily defended beaches, then landed our marines on the beaches and fought for every yard of soil up the entire island. Fought for control of the air, and once our pilots had achieved it, assuming they did. bombed their cities conventionally as we did the cities of Germany. Paid probably in the hundreds of thousands or even millions of American and Japanese lives and untold cost in planes, munitions, and other material. That was certainly an alternative. It was one they chose not to take. If what you mean is that there were other acceptable alternatives available that would have ended the war with less loss of life and destruction, I don't think they saw any better alternative. Maybe there was one we can see from this distance. But it has to be one that would have appeared to them to be realistically achievable with the available resources (including the spirit and support of the population, which was getting tired of war and of coffins coming home, particularly when, as you point out, it was Japs killing them and not good white boys, and which was running out of money to keep buying war bonds with).

To: Yogizuna who wrote (39651)	11/29/2001 3:37:02 PM
From: J. C. Dithers	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

Yogi, my response to your latest on August, 1945 ...more worried about the expansion of communism than the lives of ordinary human beings That'a curious statement. Our concerns about the Soviet style of communism was precisely the fact that it would enslave many millions of ordinary human beings, such as happened to the Poles, Hungarians, Czechoslovakians, and East Germans. Moreover, when a nation declares war on your country, you can hardly be expected to view the citizens of that nation as "ordinary" human beings. Far from being ordinary, they become your deadly enemies. It was not unusual for fliers unfortunate enough to be downed in Japan to be beaten to death by these "ordinary human beings" (and none were ever charged as war criminals). the perception at the time orientals were not as highly valued as whites.... You certainly must be aware that the Chinese were our valued allies against Japan? You must be aware that the Japanese themselves committed horrendous atrocities against the Chinese? You must be aware that the Japanese military were contemptuous of Caucasians, particularly Americans? You must know that Japan was not a signatory to the Geneva Convention (humane treatment of prisoners of war), and that Japanese soldiers were instructed that since surrender was dishonorable, POWs could be executed? You have heard of the Bataan Death March? The war between Japan and the United States was a war between two races. Are you sure you have thought out thoroughly just where "racism" began and ended in this war? Is it your conclusion that only the United States was racist? ...to pretend or truly believe there were no other alternatives available... Of course there were other alternatives. Japan would have accepted a conditional surrender that left its remaining military strength intact and which would have given it a free hand in Asia. Do you imagine that the Chinese would have viewed that as a good alternative? Or, we could have shelved the bombs and proceeded with an invasion of the Japanese homeland. No one doubts that such a course would have lengthened the war by another year or more, and led to a huge toll of additional American dead and wounded. Does that sound like a better idea to you? If it does, why do you care less about the lives of American citizen-soldiers than you do about the lives of "ordinary Japanese human beings?" Does this make you "racist?" The men who would have died or been wounded would have surely included high-school upper-classmates of mine who were serving in the Far East theatre. Why do you lack compassion for them, as well as for their parents? I asked you before, Yogi, to suggest an alternative yourself. You have the advantage of having an additional half-century of knowledge and experience, over the decision-makers at the time. You actually know more now, then they did then. Surely since you have such strong views on this subject, you must have formulated a practical idea of your own. You would advance his discussion must further if you would put it on the table. JC

To: Yogizuna who wrote (39651)	11/29/2001 3:57:56 PM
From: Michael M	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 82486

Hey, it worked. We won. Decisively. You have a problem with that? You sound like you have a problem with that. The Japanese were ALL ready to die. Estimates of a million dead as a result of invasion are a serious understatement, IMO. I spent seven years living and working in Japan and I am confident in that opinion. Japan's complete capitulation, acknowledged by Hirohito, not only stopped hostilities but effected great cooperation by the Japanese people and made possible one of the most remarkable (and positive) changes in any society in history. Often overlooked in arguments about dropping the bomb, is the fact that the Soviets, who turned their attention to Japan in waning days of the war, would have become involved there and demanded a major role in controlling post-war Japan. In fact, the Soviets were making demands of this sort and Washington was showing signs of listening when MacArthur nipped the argument by pressing forward with his own program on behalf of the USA. I have a great love for Japan and the Japanese. I do not have the slightest doubt about the wisdom of our decision to drop the nukes.