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To: Mannie who wrote (45386)12/19/2001 7:36:30 PM
From: Sully-  Respond to of 65232
 
Office furniture makers suffer in soft US economy

NEW YORK, Dec 19 (Reuters) - Office furniture makers Steelcase Inc. (NYSE:SCS - news) and Herman Miller Inc. (NasdaqNM:MLHR - news) both reported sharply lower quarterly results on Wednesday amid continued cutbacks in business spending as sales slumped in the soft U.S. economy.

Office furniture makers are facing the worst slump in demand in 30 years, industry watchers said.

``The companies are working hard to position themselves through cost-cutting actions to lessen the financial impact over this period and move into renewed profitability as quickly as they can,'' said Carey Callaghan, an analyst at Goldman Sachs.

The possibility of further consolidation and job cuts still looms, he said.

Steelcase, the No. 1 U.S. office furniture maker, which has cut more than 5,000 hourly, temporary and salaried positions over the last 12 months, said it plans to consolidate its work force and facilities in Europe.

The company, with a current work force of 20,000, said it will take significant one-time charges as a result of the moves and now expects to report a net loss in the fiscal 2002 fourth quarter.

Grand Rapids, Michigan-based Steelcase also said it now sees its results for the second half of fiscal 2002 excluding one-time charges at the lower end of its previous guidance of 10 cents to 15 cents a share.

Steelcase reported net income for its third quarter ended Nov. 23 of $4.9 million, or 3 cents per share, compared with $51.7 million, or 35 cents per share, a year earlier. Excluding an after-tax charge associated with work force reductions announced last quarter and a gain on the sale of a nonoperating asset, net income was $7.2 million, or 5 cents per share.

Analysts' earnings estimates ranged from a loss of 1 cent to a profit of 7 cents per share, with a mean profit of 4 cents per share, according to research firm Thomson Financial/First Call.

Herman Miller, based in Zeeland, Michigan, reported a loss after special charges for its second quarter ended Dec. 1 and said it sees a net loss before charges for its fiscal third quarter.

``The contract office furniture industry is experiencing its worst downturn in 30 years, with shipments forecasted to decline 17.8 percent for calendar 2001,'' Herman Miller Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Michael Volkema said in a statement.

Herman Miller reported a net loss of $22.7 million, or 30 cents per share, after a profit of $42.3 million, or 54 cents per diluted share, a year earlier. Excluding restructuring charges, Herman Miller earned $1.7 million, or 2 cents per share, in the period ended Dec. 1.

Analysts polled by Thomson Financial/First Call had expected second quarter earnings of 2 cents to 6 cents per share, with a consensus of 4 cents.

Herman Miller forecast third quarter sales of $335 million to $355 million and a loss per share of 6 cents to 10 cents before special charges. The company has so far taken $48.4 million in restructuring charges, out of expected charges of $50 million to $65 million.

``Our expectation is that by the middle of next year things ought to turn around and get better'' for the industry, Goldman's Callaghan said. In the meantime, however, ``there could be further cost reductions,'' he said.

But the turnaround in demand for office furniture may not be felt by until late 2002.

According to a report released by the Business and Institutional Furniture Manufacturer's Association, office furniture shipments are expected to fall 17.8 percent to $10.9 billion in 2001 and to fall 8.8 percent to $9.95 billion in 2002.

A ``modest recovery'' in industry shipments beginning in late 2002 should continue through 2003, the association said, assuming the U.S. recessionary period is ``mild and brief.''

Shares of Herman Miller closed up 41 cents, or 1.8 percent at $23.62, in Wednesday trading on the Nasdaq. The stock has fallen about 18 percent since the beginning of the year.

Steelcase ended up 19 cents, or 1.4 percent, at $13.39 on the New York Stock Exchange. The stock has fallen about 16 percent since July 31, when it hit a 52-week high of $16.

biz.yahoo.com



To: Mannie who wrote (45386)12/19/2001 7:47:52 PM
From: RR  Read Replies (5) | Respond to of 65232
 
Hi Scott: Let me start with a bold statement. Valuation? So what?

My opinion will not be conventional. You must take my comments from the perspective of my investment style. You've known me long enough and have heard me say before that I don't even look at valuations. I take huge risks. I'm not the typical investor. Don't do what I do. Consequently, my view is slanted.

Let me try to keep this simple. The gurus screaming about valuations have been screaming that for years, in fact, right through the last bull run when we all got rich. So what?

The market is like an antique or something rare priced too high, or that product that you really, really want but we all know it's priced too high. What happens? Many still buy it anyway. Bet you've done that before, too. The stock prices are balanced by what people will pay for them. Valuations too high? OK, again, so what? If folks are willing to put that money in the market, pay that much, so be it, regardless of valuation.

Yes, from a conventional standpoint, it doesn't make sense. So? That does not mean I'm going to sit on my hands and do nothing and miss a huge run like we've had from September, where some call option positions (what I like as you know) have gone up by huge multiples. Excuse me while I go to the bank and count my money while those who argue valuation continue their debate.

What are people watching as criteria to make investment decisions? If you look long term, then hey, yeah you might just sit on the sidelines and wait, and wait, until the valuations come back down. But, will they go back down to a level considered more reasonable by some folks' standards of before? What does this generation of investor consider relative to valuation? Yes, there's a different generation out there right now. People view the market differently and that factor alone has driven the market to high valuations.

So, hey, let the valuations sore. Doesn't bother me. I play the swings. I tend to think investors of the future will have a shorter term view. While I still subscribe to a dollar cost averaging for a conservative investor, I'm not so sure that is the best way anymore, especially if valuations are so high. Lessons learned from post Naz 5000 is go ahead and pull the trigger, don't be afraid to take some profits, and get out before it turns!

The trend is your friend, as the ole saying goes. Ride it hard, make your bucks, and get out when it turns the other way. Valuations don't mean squat to me from that standpoint, and I'd submit my view is not that much different from many today. Otherwise, why, why, pay for such high valuations?

Uh, did I just come full circle?

RR



To: Mannie who wrote (45386)12/19/2001 10:12:27 PM
From: Jim Willie CB  Read Replies (4) | Respond to of 65232
 
DuckMan, answer lies in competing investments
cash is king now for sure
but cash has a way of being uncomfortable where it rests
gonna go for bonds?
actually, I think bonds will rise substantially in the next 3 months
as it becomes clear that econ recovery is not likely in early Q2
but then afterwards, when the long is back under 4.7%, bonds will suck
then when the recovery is in half-swing then full-swing, bonds will suck bigtime

gonna go for housing and property?
wow, if and when recovery happens, rates rise and values fall
as cost per month attempts to remain stable -- the anchor
how about commercial property?
doubtful here either, since vacancies are troublesome
not to mention the stress and strain in managing

my sister loves jewelry, et toi? how about art?
try turning a buck and seeking liquidity

junk bonds?
might be really profitable very soon
but if you are wrong, you might lose it all

in the past six months I have struggled to find a road back to wealth
for a while I thought property would be good to gradually accumulate
but outside a two-family eventually, that is all I think to be wise
for personal occupation that is, with single women in other half

most roads to wealth involve either stocks or a keen growing business
but I dont have a knack for starting a business
stocks are the answer
Scotty, you are unusual among investors in your admirable patience
most dont come close to possessing your level
I have heard it all with other people
"I am in it for the long haul" ... right, until you are down over 20%
"I am diversified with bonds also" ... right, until you are down over 20%
"I have a strategy that works for my lifestyle" ... right, until you are down over 20%

it comes back to stocks
personally, I believe the next wave will be best with smallcaps and microcaps
even nanocaps, or tinycaps, as I like to call them
but one MUST be right

on valuation issues, a real tough question
95% or more of investors regard price in relative terms
sure, relative to earnings... but earnings when?
I dont trust your quoted PEratios, to be honest
they may be from a respectable source, but by what definition?
trailing 4Q? current FY? next FY? according to whom?
the same effing moron analysts who missed the total disappearance of earnings this year?
with the stimulus in the pipeline, it is only a matter of time before recovery shows its head
we are talking about massive unprecedented fiscal and monetary stimulus here
even despite the imbecile Democrats who have stalled the Congressional package
(they would rather give money to unemployed than to corporations who hire 10x as many after incentives paid off)

I regard them the same way as many others do, relative to past price
while keeping in mind the future levels of sales and growth
if Uniphaz begins to see growth again, then we must view it as 1/4 to 1/10 the price of past
if a small firm begins to turn corner into profitability, then we must view it as better than
that flatline discounted incubated price level stuck for months in the past
if telecom gets out of the shitter, then American Tower must be seen as cheap relative to that low of 6
its stable of towers and cashflow looks potentially monstrous
but it needs the debt to threaten less, with a healthier wireless sector
if Siebel begins to see client health, and growing business again, then we must view it as cheap
it is 1/5 to 1/4 of its old price
heck, the Naz is still 60% off its high
but more realistically, the Naz is at its 1998 levels

valuations are a tricky subject, and they are high by most measures now
so stay away from stocks that have elusive forward earnings and growth
like the bulging titans such as Cisco, Intel, GE, EMC, etc
favor instead the smaller companies whose earnings will truly grow leaps & bounds in the recovery
favor the sectors which are to truly grow in healthy fashion in the recovery (not telecom, fiberoptic)
pick from among several surefire sectors like energy, security, biotech
shy away from the tired tech sectors suffering from overcapacity
that overcapacity will surely weigh it down for another 2-3 years
but not oil/gas exploration and production
not security of computers, buildings, facilities, internet commerce
not defense, not many promising biotech areas
fuelcells are very close to the real deal
fuelcelled busses are in Europe now, with big back orders for Ballard

valuation has me concerned also
that is why I wont touch the largecaps or midcaps
on relative terms some seem inexpensive on earnings consideration though
I believe the largecaps and midcaps will recover in price
but will fail to achieve ANY earnings growth, only earnings recovery (even steven with 1998-99)

this rally is not doomed, only stalled
the big question with me is how much patience will it exhibit
my answer is "more than it would have in the past 18 months"
we are close to some recovery
its sustainability is questionable perhaps
if we in US recover slowly, then we will sustain it... that is my strong opinion
we must endure an imploding Asia led by Japan
they face the brink now, the real brink
1/3 of their banks are dead, and their stocks will see sub-100 yen prices (<$1)

most people will favor stocks as the vehicle
then what remains is timing?
mutual funds will soon face extreme risks to their survival
excellent article in last Business Week
their bloated staff and arrogance and disconnection with their customers is rampant
the growth in mutuals will be seen with smaller, nifty firms with track records
my guess is when the public gets back in big ways in stocks next year, differences will emerge
like using midcaps much more, and smallcaps much more
I just dont see the tech titans garnering more than their NiftyFifty share like before
we are to see emergence of a new class of growing viable companies

sorry to ramble, but my fingers are on a roll
I like the vehicle of stocks still, the only monstrous potential out there
it rewards a keen eye for true growth, if you are diligent and patient
I am halfway there, and working on the other
beware of forecasters of earnings
they dont have an effing clue, only guesses
I giggle at talk of Naz100 having no PEratio since no collective earnings
so what?
I can seek out 5-10 companies which have sales growth now, and earnings will follow
I can find several selling at discounts to their sectors
it becomes then a waiting game
if you discern the upcoming trend, seek value within, and display patience,
you will profit handsomely in the next 18 months
if you are patient to pull the switch on pullbacks, you will profit with some familiar names also

what we really need is for Asia to take its monumental crapp and get it over with
then we might see some real world economic recovery
but we have to give our continent and Europe some time to absord these debt levels
both household and corporate

let me close with a question
if not stocks in the next 2-3 years, what vehicle offers a better return on your invested money?
sincerely, Jim