SI
SI
discoversearch

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor.  We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community.  If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.
Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (16755)1/18/2002 2:23:13 PM
From: Bilow  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Hi Nadine Carroll; Re: "According to the Saudi press, 9/11 was obviously the work of the Mossad ..." More BS from MEMRI. Hey, I'm sure you can find a newspaper article from a Saudi newspaper quoting someone as saying something like that but so what, I can find the same quotes in US newspapers. MEMRI is very biased and they're giving you only what it is that they want you to hear. For you this is a good thing, because your politics are aligned precisely with MEMRI's.

The fact is that the vast majority of the Arab reporting on the WTC attributed it to Osama bin Laden. If the Arabs really believed that the Mossad arranged the bombings then why were they simultaneously celebrating in the street over the great victory? You guys have got to the point in your hatred where your ability to think clearly has been affected. Why would you think that you can fool the rest of us into believing contradictory things about what the Arabs believe is the perpetrator of the WTC?

For that matter, it would be more impressive if you gave a link to a Saudi Arabian web site instead of the usual Israeli propaganda. There's plenty of English Saudi Arabian news sites, and they have plenty of news. For example:

Fire kills infant girl in Jouf
Atheer news, Saudi Arabia, January 18, 2002
An infant girl has died here, in the northern province of Jouf, of severe burns suffered when a loose end of her dress caught fire as she was playing near a kerosene heater. Unaware of the fire, she continued running around the room, and set various bits of furniture on fire. By the time people came to her rescue, the girl was dead, said Lt. Col. Abdan Al-Sharari, director of Civil Defense unit in the town. The fire was reportedly caused by Mossad agents who parachuted in from a secret airdrop on Monday. The defense ministry says that the Zionist oppressors will be hunted down like dogs.
atheer.net.sa

It's easy enough to generate urban myths about societies like the Saudis. If you can't think of any, go back to this post, which claimed (incorrectly), for instance, that women couldn't be doctors in Saudi Arabia: #reply-16526745

-- Carl

P.S. I shamelessly added the final two sentences to the Saudi story on the house fire.



To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (16755)1/19/2002 3:22:52 PM
From: AlienTech  Read Replies (4) | Respond to of 281500
 
No one except some low lifes with perceptions of muslim grander cares about OBL, But the US definetely lost out on the humanity front. Even the nazi's and child molesters were treated better and no matter that arab's and asians and other low life's dont matter much in the grand scale of western civilization even as organ donors due to inferior genes, they are still humans. And might makes right but no civilization how great lasts for ever. This was a time to show the world what makes democraZy and western civilization great. It sure showed what makes right and a whole bunch of chain link coffins on guadaloophole is proof. So is Saudia Arabia such a bad place to live after all?

Farewell to liberty

The US and its allies, in the name of the
war against terrorism, have forsaken their cherished values of democracy and human
rights, writes Ignacio Ramonet


Everyone agrees that the events of 11 September 2001 started off a new era. So perhaps we should look closely at what historical cycles were ended by those events, and the consequences of that. The era we are leaving began with the fall of the Berlin Wall on 9 November 1989 and the subsequent collapse of the Soviet Union on 25 December 1991. This phase of history (which coincided with the rise of free market liberalism) had three much-hyped characteristics: the promotion of a democratic government, insistence on the idea of the state based on law, and the glorification of human rights. This modern trinity was an imperative in domestic and foreign policy, repeatedly invoked by commentators. It was not entirely free of ambiguities - is liberal globalisation really compatible with worldwide democracy? But it seemed likely that the trinity would have the support of ordinary people, who would see it as an advance of human rights and law, and against barbarism.

Suddenly, in the name of a supposed "just war" against terrorism, all this has been forgotten. To pursue the war in Afghanistan, the US has had no hesitation in making alliances with regimes until recently seen as undesirable: Pakistan's general Pervez Musharraf, in office because of a putsch, and the dictator of Uzbekistan, Islam Karimov. The voices of the legitimate president of Pakistan, Nawaz Sharif, and of those who defended freedoms in Uzbekistan, failed to reach us from behind their prison walls. Values that only yesterday were regarded as fundamental mysteriously disappeared from the political landscape, and democratic countries took steps backwards in human rights and international law.

A clear example is the whirlwind of anti-libertarian measures in the US. Immediately after the attacks, a system of emergency justice was installed. Attorney-General John Ashcroft pushed through an anti-terrorism law - the "patriot law" - that gives the government powers to arrest suspects and detain them almost indefinitely, deport them, hold them in solitary confinement, open their mail, tap their phones, monitor their email and search their homes without a warrant. Some 1,200 foreigners have been secretly arrested, and more than 600 are still in prison, although no court has found them guilty. Many have not been brought before a judge and they have been denied access to lawyers (1). The US government has also announced its intention to interrogate 5,000 men between 16 and 45, currently in the US on tourist visas, who are regarded as suspects just because they come from West Asia (2).

Even though the US already has an adequate system of ordinary courts (3), on 13 November President George W Bush announced the establishment of military tribunals with special procedures, designed to try foreigners accused of terrorism. Trials will be held in secret; they can be held on ships or at military bases; sentence will be passed by a board of military officers; a full majority is not required to impose the death sentence; there will be no appeal against sentencing; conversations between defendants and their lawyers can be monitored; the proceedings of these tribunals will be covered by rules of confidentiality and details will only be available to the public decades later.

FBI officials have even gone so far as to suggest that defendants be extradited to friendly countries with dictatorial regimes, to be interrogated by police with methods that are "crude but effective". The use of torture has been openly called for in the mainstream press (4). Speaking on CNN, Republican commentator Tucker Carlson was explicit: torture was not good, but terrorism was worse, so in certain circumstances torture was the lesser evil. Steve Chapman, writing in the Chicago Tribune, pointed out that an apparently democratic state such as Israel had no hesitation in using torture on 85 per cent of its Palestinian prisoners (5).

Reversing a 1974 decision banning the CIA from assassinating foreign political leaders, Bush has now given the agency a free hand to undertake any secret operation necessary for the physical elimination of the al-Qaeda leadership. Ignoring the Geneva Convention, the war in Afghanistan has been conducted in the same spirit: members of al-Qaeda were killed even where they had surrendered. Rejecting suggestions of surrender or negotiated settlement, Donald Rumsfeld favoured killing Arab prisoners who had fought with the Taliban. More than 400 prisoners were massacred in the rising at the Qala-i-Janghi fort near Mazar-i-Sharif and it is likely that even more were killed in taking the Tora Bora tunnel complex.

To prevent US military personnel being brought to trial for operations conducted on foreign soil, Washington has been hostile to the idea of an International Criminal Court (ICC). In the same spirit, the Senate has just approved a first draft of the ASPA (American service-members' protection act), which would enable the US to take extreme measures - even invading a country - to recover any US citizen likely to be brought before a future ICC.

As part of the "world war against terrorism", other countries - including the UK, Germany, Italy, Spain and France- have also introduced repressive legislation. Defenders of civil rights have good reason for alarm. What had seemed to be a general movement in our societies towards a greater respect for individuals and their liberties has been abruptly put on hold. Everything suggests a police-state future.



(1) El Pais, 10 November 2001.
(2) Le Monde, 30 November 2001.
(3) International Herald Tribune, 1 December 2001.
(4) See Newsweek, 5 November 2001.
(5) Quoted in El Pais, 7 November 2001.

(Translated by Ed Emery)