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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (25638)	4/16/2002 3:50:56 PM
From: GST	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

"How about you... Care to give it a try?" Sure. Israel did not exist -- it was created by the UN with the leadership coming from the US. That is why it exists. Israel had borders -- limits. It expanded those limits through war and then through settlement into land that was not part of the deal and is not recognized by anybody, including the United States, as legitimate. Iraq tried to pull that kind of stunt in Kuwait. Israel has gotten away with it so far. You could make Palestine part of Jordan if you prefer -- but I do not see any political will to do so. By default, it should be a self-governing state and a "homeland" for the people displaced by the Israelis. As for the "right of return". Imagine a state that is not allowed to have people return if they choose??? The only reason for a Palestinian State NOT to exist is because Jewish radicals want to steal the land of their Arab neighbors through settlements -- in the end the settlements are the whole issue. Israel has shown itself incapable of dealing with its own radicals -- the Jewish settlers -- who are the key stumbling block to peace -- far more than Arafat or anybody else.

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (25638)	4/16/2002 4:16:29 PM
From: captain_midnite	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

What makes the Palestinians so darn special that they must have a homeland when so many other ethnicities are denied one? I have been musing over this bit of inconsistency for some time now. I would hazard a guess it has a wee bit to do with the opposing side to all this. Bill Clinton has a good analogy for why this is the case, from personal experience. Has a bit to do with how your enemies are perceived versus your own misdeeds. Sure kept him viable, notwithstanding everything. How about a simple statement of what one side wants: Nope...all I ever see is the typical pre-adolescent rants from either side: "He started it!" "No, they did this first" "My massacre is worse than your massacre!" "Your leader is a war criminal" "So, your leader is a war criminal and a terrorist!!" "We've lived here for 700 years" "Oh yeah?, we were here 2000 years ago" "My family was here before there was a 'here'" "Infinity!" "Infinity plus one!" Still waiting for a reasoned, calm, and thoughtful proposal. Until then,it's gonna be "praise 'fill in the appropriate deity' and pass the ammo." Middle East looks like a desert to me, but lunacy and obstinance sure grows well. midnite

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (25638)	4/16/2002 4:50:51 PM
From: Katelew	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Hawkmoon...you raise some interesting points..but here's the way I see it. It's not a question of should the Palestinians be allowed to 'establish' a homeland. It's a question of Israel giving their land back and removing the population of the settlements. Whether or not the Palestinians create their own state as a secular democracy or join up with Jordan, which is not, is their decision. In the early years, Jewish immigrants bought land in Palestine. In subsequent years, the immigrants used a variety of means to essentially confiscate land that wasn't for sale. For ex. waiting until a family had temporarily left the land or a harvest had been completed...Israelis would take aerial photographs and declare the land 'abandoned', drawing on some archaic Ottoman laws pertaining to abandonment of land. Or the 'accidental' bulldozing of homes...people go to stay with relatives...Israel claims the land. The 'Jewish only' roads that service the settlements in Gaza and the West Bank was obtained by emminent domain. How can Israel be allowed to acquire land thru emminent domain when the title to the land is in dispute??? I don't see justification for a homeland based on anything special or unique about Palestinians other than the fact that they once enjoyed rightful ownership of the land. For that matter there is Israeli occupation of land that was once owned by Christian Arabs and American Arabs. Title for these lands should be transferred back, too.