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Pastimes : MANIPULATION IS RAMPANT --- Can We Stop It? -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: LPS5 who wrote (108)5/12/2002 2:37:40 PM
From: id  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 589
 
LPS5 wrote:

"It is my personal belief that most forms of regulation are little more than inherently-biased propositions which, instead of evening things out as they purport to, merely redistribute wealth and opportunity: replacing that which is deemed by pols "unfair" with another, slightly different but at least equally skewed regime. Instead, I believe that natural market forces - products of economic and behavioral laws - encapsulate and should be held as the highest law(s). Markets and social orders ultimately cannot be regulated to the benefit of a particular party without trampling others' freedoms in the process."

ironically, despite a snippy exchange or two, i find myself in general agreement with much of what LPS5 has written in this and other posts. there is no denying the threat to freedom posed by over-regulated markets, over-planned economies etc. indeed, it is difficult to imagine that many traders would be socialist types hankering for the collectivist utopia, though i could be wrong about that, i guess. but free market purists and dogmatic libertarian types are also grounded, in 2002, in a measure of unreality. SOME regulation is inevitable and except for a few loose screws currently cacheing ammo in rural idaho, few would deny this.

when LPS5 claims, and let me repeat this for emphasis:

"Markets and social orders ultimately cannot be regulated to the benefit of a particular party without trampling others' freedoms in the process."

he is right, but seems not to grasp that it is this very premise that 1)indicts the status quo and, 2)provides the very rationale for the sort of discussion this thread promotes. is there any market participant still capable of fogging a mirror who doubts that current market regulations benfit particular parties, that merril lynch has influenced those regulations far more than you and i, and that,consequently, the freedoms trampled in the process are far more likely to have been yours and mine than ML's.

of course, i suppose it is possible that LPS5 actually believes that the big money on wall street has scrupulously avoided influencing regulation to benefit themselves and, according to his own construction, trample the freedoms of others (individual investors), but if he does so believe, we may safely decline to take him seriously.

the point is this: a measure of regulation in the equities markets, von mises and hayek notwithstanding, is virtually unavoidable in the modern world. that regulation will inevitably benefit particular parties. if one feels benefited by current regulations, one is likely to resist competing regulations. if one feels trampled on by current regulations, one is likely to support competing regulations. i think the idea of this thread is that individuals have at least as much right as, say, brokerage houses to be the parties benefited by regulations. since wishing will not make it so, a public dialogue that looks beyond mere wishing, seems a good idea.

id



To: LPS5 who wrote (108)5/12/2002 2:47:52 PM
From: CountofMoneyCristo  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 589
 
As is your self-appointment to Minister of Appropriateness on top of Most Worthy Viceroy of Spread Width (et al).

Man, get a hold of yourself.

Isn't it the same old story: whenever any private individuals dare question the practices of large, powerful brokerage firms, name-calling almost immediately enters the discussion in aid of the defense against any scrutiny. Those of you who continue questioning Wall Street practices, I can all-but guarantee that within a few more posts you will be alternatively called any of the following:

- sick
- sociopathic
- demented
- crazed
- paranoid
- in need of help
- deranged
- unbalanced
- psychotic

It never fails...

I don't think anyone is above the law. In fact, your paternal, knee-jerking, interventionist approach is far more likely to provide exceptions to and loopholes around the administration of justice than mine would.

Come again? Where did I express an "interventionist approach"? I simply pointed out that the Nasdaq Price Fixing Scandal was not some isolated events in back offices. Those who steal should be punished. Simple. Or do you disagree? Do you think artificially manipulating stock prices is acceptable? I am sure the brokerage firms feel it is.

The equity dealing desks of 30 firms indicate a "street-wide" phenomenon? LOL.

Let's see who was charged:

+ Alex Brown
+ Bear, Stearns
+ Cantor, Fitzgerald
+ Cowen
+ CS First Boston
+ Dean Witter
+ DLJ
+ Goldman Sachs
+ Herzog
+ Jeffries
+ J.P. Morgan
+ Kemper
+ Kidder, Peabody
+ Legg, Mason
+ Lehman
+ Mayer & Schweitzer
+ Merrill Lynch
+ Montgomery
+ Morgan Stanley
+ Oppenheimer
+ Paine Webber
+ Piper
+ Prudential
+ Robertson Stephens
+ Salomon Brothers
+ Smith Barney
+ UBS

That sounds like just about every famous name on Wall Street to me. What do you think?

And that save for those meant to protect against fraud or physical harm/coercion - I'm saying that the former two are exceptions to the rule - virtually all that regulatory bodies focusing on markets, businesses and social orders really offer is a bureaucratic hole for taxpayers' dollars and a constantly grinding shellgame of individual liberties.

So basically what you would do is toss out our entire legal system with the "exceptions" - a bow to civilization, lest we return to the Dark Ages, no doubt - of laws pertaining to fraud and violence? Well, it is the dream of some in our society isn't it? That the laws constraining their immoral pursuits simply would just disappear. Not likely.

For thoe of you who are interested, here is the complaint, "IN RE: NASDAQ MARKET-MAKERS ANTITRUST LITIGATION":

www-snde.rutgers.edu



To: LPS5 who wrote (108)5/12/2002 3:03:19 PM
From: CountofMoneyCristo  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 589
 
You continually question whether any reasonable spread determination can be made. Well, this was argued very precisely in the complaint:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

www-snde.rutgers.edu

I. SUMMARY OF ALLEGATIONS

1. Beginning as early as 1989, defendants and their co-conspirators combined and conspired to raise, fix and maintain, and did raise, fix and maintain at supra-competitive levels the "spread" paid by plaintiffs and Class members to trade in certain Nasdaq securities ("Class Securities", as further defined below).

2. (a) Nasdaq is a computerized quotations system operated by the National Association of Securities Dealers ("NASD"). Nasdaq is one of the world's largest securities markets.
(b) Defendants are leading Nasdaq market-makers.
(c) The "spread" is the difference between the "bid" (the price at which the market-maker is willing to buy a security) and the "ask" (the price at which the market-maker is willing to sell such security).
(d) The spread is a major source of market-maker profits; the wider the spreads, the greater the market-makers' individual and collective profit.

3. Nasdaq operates on a bid and asked system. In contrast to the stock exchanges, which employ an auction system (in which customer orders to buy or sell are matched against one another), Nasdaq employs a multiple market-maker system in which customers sell to and buy from market-makers. Each market-maker is purportedly independent, and purportedly competes against other market-makers in quoting bids and asks for customer trades.

4. Defendants and all other Nasdaq market-makers continuously communicate to one another each market-maker's bid and offer quotations through Nasdaq's "electronic billboard" computer system and computer screens in each market-maker's respective office. By virtue of such communication, defendants were and are continuously aware of the price changes and spreads of each market-maker for Class Securities, including but not limited to whether any market-maker is quoting a bid or ask in an odd-eighth (i.e., 1/8, 3/8, 5/8, and 7/8 of a dollar).

5. The large number of market-makers competing for business on actively traded Nasdaq Class Securities, and Nasdaq's high degree of automation, should result in narrower spreads than those on the exchanges. However, it has not. To the contrary, spreads on Nasdaq Class Securities are considerably greater than spreads on the stock exchanges for comparable securities.

6. In the absence of defendants' combination and conspiracy, spreads would have been smaller on Class Securities, to the benefit of plaintiffs and Class members.

7. Defendants and their co-conspirators raised, fixed and maintained the spreads for Class Securities at supra-competitive levels by, inter alia, refusing to quote their bids and asks for Class Securities in so-called odd-eighths; and instead widening spreads to even-eighths. This results in a minimum spread of at least $0.25 per share for Class Securities, whereas the typical spread for actively traded Class Securities otherwise would be half that amount or less.

8. The term "breaking the spread" is a term of art among defendants and their co-conspirators, and refers to those instances in which a market-maker quotes an odd-eighth or another better bid or ask which reduces defendants' inflated spread. Defendants and their co-conspirators by agreement and through enforcement activities, effectively prevented and deterred each other from "breaking the spread" on Class Securities.

9. Enforcement activities, on information and belief, have included telephone calls between purportedly competing market-makers in which the market-maker who has broken the conspiratorial spread is accused of "Chinese trading" (a pejorative term of art among defendants and their co-conspirators); or told for example, "Don't break the spread! You're ruining it for everybody else!"; or told for example, "We don't play ball that way. Go back where you belong."

10. In furtherance of their combination and conspiracy, defendants and their co-conspirators raised, fixed and maintained Nasdaq spreads through the following means, among others: following the spread set by the dominant dealer (known as "the name") in a particular security; agreeing not to compete by offering a lower spread; threatening and pressuring any trader who attempts to compete by "breaking the spread"; trading around the trader who breaks a spread; or refusing to conduct business in other contexts with firms that break the spread.

11. As a result of the combination and conspiracy, Nasdaq spreads have been on average twice as large as the spreads on the New York and American stock exchanges for comparable securities. Moreover, from May 1, 1989 to May, 1993, average spreads on the Nasdaq National Market increased by over 37%, during which time average spreads on the New York and American stock exchanges have held steady. A study concluded that spreads were reduced by more than 50% on average when securities moved from trading on Nasdaq to trading on an exchange.

12. As a result of defendants' combination and conspiracy, defendants and their co-conspirators quoted bids and asks for Class Securities in a manner that reflects a statistically unexplainable, almost complete absence of bids and asks in odd-eighths. In freely-traded securities, odd-eighth bid or ask quotes occur frequently and would be expected to occur almost as often as even-eighth bids or asks.

13. In an effort to deflect criticism, but instead reflecting the prior artificial inflation of spreads, defendants suddenly started using odd-eighth quotes and reduced the spreads for selected high-profile Class Securities shortly after (a) widespread news reports in late May 1994 about a study by Professor William G. Christie and Professor Paul H. Schultz indicating collusion in fixing of Nasdaq spreads; and again (b) in October 1994, after the United States Department of Justice publicly announced an investigation into whether defendants had conspired to fix Nasdaq spreads. Defendants reduced the spreads on certain high-profile Nasdaq securities by approximately 50% following publicity about defendants' price fixing, and a meeting in late May, 1994 attended by various defendants at the headquarters of defendant Bear, Stearns & Co.

14. On information and belief, each defendant's costs and risks of doing business as a market-maker did not diminish at the time of the news reports about price fixing in late May, 1994; nor at the time of the news reports about the Department of Justice investigation in October, 1994. Nor did any other significant changes simultaneously occur in the structure of the market that would have permitted a dramatic reduction in the levels of any spreads, if those spreads previously had been competitively priced. On the contrary, the sole reason for defendants' ability to cut spreads by approximately 50% for selected high-profile Class Securities, following widespread publicity about defendants' price fixing, is the fact that the spreads for those Class Securities previously had been raised, fixed and maintained at artificially inflated and supra-competitive levels. These 50% reductions, following news reports about price fixing or announcement of the Department of Justice investigation, are indicative of the significant extent to which spreads on these securities had been inflated previously by collusive price fixing.