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To: Michael M who wrote (16774)	7/7/2002 12:31:50 PM
From: Lazarus_Long	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 21057

I honestly believe government's historical basis is religious belief and the institutions and codes of behavior that resulted. So what? The nation had the institution of slavery at its founding. Did we make a mistake by abolishing it? The fact that something has a historical basis is no argument for its continuation. Secular power and democracy removes enforcement power from clergy (a good thing) but removes the values and self-regulating influence of "belief" at great peril. Highly speculative. It is "possible" to have completely secular government without any sort of "religious" underpinning but it is either extremely vulnerable to fad and fashion or requires a great many policemen. Since Buddhism has no God, I'm sure the Japanese will be most happy to hear that you have a cure fore the disorderly chaos of their society. Why do you substitute prejudicial phrases like "religious superstition" in place of "religious belief" or "religious faith"? Because that's what it is?

To: Michael M who wrote (16774)	7/7/2002 1:12:19 PM
From: E	Respond to of 21057

Secular power and democracy removes enforcement power from clergy (a good thing) but removes the values and self-regulating influence of "belief" at great peril. You and Osama disagree about the first being a good thing and agree profoundly that the second is perilous. "Belief" brought down the twin towers.

To: Michael M who wrote (16774)	7/7/2002 10:38:25 PM
From: Dayuhan	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 21057

Why do you substitute prejudicial phrases like "religious superstition" in place of "religious belief" or "religious faith"? I simply quoted your post: Message 17701264 Since you were honest enough to call a spade a spade, I saw no reason not to do the same. I see no reason why an effective government cannot be founded on shared values that stand independent of religion: the Bill of Rights, for example. The degree to which religion underpinned the founding of the nation is open to infinite debate. Whatever their personal religious underpinniung may have been, however, the founders did see fit to include the establishment clause rather prominently in the fundamental law of the land. I cannot see how the passage of legislation aimed at inducing children throughout the land to daily declare submission to God is consistent with that clause. It seems odd to have arguments over this when such a simple compromise is available. Go back to the original pledge, which is a statement of allegience that is inclusive of all citizens, and allow any individual to insert any desired statement of devotion to God, Allah, Yahweh, whatever the Wiccans worship, or the unborn, or equality, or television, or whatever. I would like to hear what objection anybody has to that proposal. On the subject of values and schools, I suspect that if you looked carefully, you would find that the children of atheists and New Age parents are probably less likely to cause disciplinary problems than children of those who are religious. That of course has nothing to do with any virtue of atheism or New Age religion; it is simply because atheists and New Agers tend to have money. You will find that values problems - basically disciplinary issues - correlate to an urban-rural scale and a poor-rich scale much more accurately than to any religious test. I would guess that you would not see serious problems with "values" in schools with a heavy New Age parent component. My own experience with such is that they tend to be quite devoted to smooth interpersonal relations. Academics, of course, would another issue entirely.