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Strategies & Market Trends : Booms, Busts, and Recoveries -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: TobagoJack who wrote (22072)8/4/2002 4:28:02 PM
From: Raymond Duray  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 74559
 
Hi Jay,

You raise some interesting points. I'll try to knock them back down.

Re: (a) bubbles are necessary for rapid implementation of new infrastructures and technologies

Necessary is hardly the term I'd use. Bubbles are ancillary and irrelevant to the implementation of technological breakthroughs, IMHO. They are the creation of synaptic mis-firings in the evolutionarily handicapped hard-wiring of the human mind. A sack of protoplasm that hasn't matured to the point of comprehending that we no long live on a "feast or famine hunter-chase" planet. The grasping that surrounds advances like the Internet phenomenon quite likely did absolutely nothing to truly advance the adaptation of the technology. It would have moved apace equally if Dr. Koop.con, Pets.con, and Webvan.con, among others, had never existed. These schemes were merely mechanisms for wealth transfer, and had nothing to do with advancing the culture or technology.

I believe it is vitally important to understand financial manias for what they. Basically, as I see it, they are society wide episodes of madness that only a select few, either wily or lucky get to take advantage of. They most certainly aren't necessary. Though they are necessarily exciting, exhilirating and eventually exhausting.

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Re: (b) recessions are necessary for cleansing the foam and fizz of bubbles

Again, I nonconcur. I don't see recessions as necessary, but rather as inevitable. I recall fondly the delusion that many enjoyed in 2000, when "the new era, and the end of recessions" was spoken of by the bulls of the day. Heady optimism, not soon to be repeated.

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Re: (d) Argentina 2001 are necessary for Argentina 2005,

Really, it's not that simple. A large part of the current malaise in Argentina can be direct ascribed to anti-democratic decisions taken at the highest level of corrupt regimes, like Menem's, which permitted global bankers, and global swindle-shops like Enron to achieve too great an influence on the financial aspects of Agentina. The current "austerity" imposed by the IMF is designed to make Citigroup and Banco Santindor(sp?) whole, while doing vast damage to the middle class in Argentina. Why? Simply for the sake of greed, and certainly not for the sake of enlightened public policy. What has happened to Argentina is a harbinger of the future that all national middle classes are likely to suffer as the insufferable cabal of crony capitalists who control the levers at WTO, BIS, IMF, WB, NAFTA, etc. all try to squeeze humanity for the sake of the greed of the elite. It's completely unseemly, again a characteristic of the human consciousness which hasn't properly evolved from our most ancient days when domination of a tribal territory wasn't nearly as catastophic for the planet as is the current fashion for the greedheads to act globally, and evade all local community-based responsibility for their repugnant grasping.

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Re: (e) maybe, perhaps, revolutions are necessary for rapid progress through history loops

I think the jury is still out on the efficacy of "revolution". That which occurred in the U.S. in the 1770's has been hailed as one of the best. But the thought that went into the documents that are the basis of our nation were really evolutionary extensions of the basic principals of the Enlightenment which was coursing through civil discourse throughtout England and the Continent at the time. They were more of a logical culmination, rather than a "revolution". Basically, as I see it, from the words of the Declaration of Independence, a nature desire for free men to seek to escape an oppressive and unfair yoke. That of King George III, in that day. And King George II today in the U.S. I reviewed the Declaration on our national holiday, the Fourth of July. I was impressed that of the dozen or so conditions of unfair exploitation by royalty that were expressed at the time, we've reverted to an imperial government that is guilty of at least two-thirds of the grievances that were redressed by the Declaration. Maybe it is time we have another "revolution". Which would actually be a remarkably reactionary and conservative move, taking us back to the levels of individual freedom and states rights we'd achieved in 1780.
And which have been slowly, consciously and inexorably whittled away at by the forces of centrality ever since.

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Re: (a) Greensputin tries to short circuit economic cycle

(b) Japan failed to do so


Greenspan is going to become an irrelevancy to the economic forces he's unleashed over the last half dozen years. Failing to control the excesses of the derivatives market, the inexorably increasing gaming that occurred with all the SPE, SPV, and elaborate off-shore swindle-schemes that the bankers were creating, and his obeisance to the banker class have created an explosive situation that is of the banker's own making. Their rapacious grasping has now got the world's economy on hair trigger. And they don't really have an endgame in sight. Mere bandaiding is all they've come up with for the last few months. As the scandals of corporate "malfea'ance" continue to roil the markets, Greenspan is left with very few tools with which to attempt to turn Supertanker America back onto a favored course. Much of this is of his own making. By being so indulgent of the shenanigans of his member banks, he's created the greatest level of "moral hazard" the world has even known. When the history of our era is written, the Savings & Loan debacle of the 1980's, which will eventually cost the U.S. taxpayer about half a trillion dollars, will be viewed as a minor glitch, on the road to perdition that we seem to inexorably be heading down.

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Re: (c) One-man-one-vote construct short circuits Revolutionary cycles ...

Halleluiah! A way for man to save himself, from himself.

Cheerio! Ray



To: TobagoJack who wrote (22072)8/4/2002 5:36:46 PM
From: prosperous  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 74559
 
Jay
Some thoughts about being invested in this market.
Was dusting off recently Ben Graham/Dodd's "security Analysis" classic. On page 6 while ruminating about the 1929 equity crash and subsequent bonds crash they say:

"The theory that a sound bond will be unaffected by a period of depression has suffered a rude shock. Margins of safety considered ample to withstand any probable shrinkage in earnings have proved inadequate; and enterprises once regarded as depression-proof are having difficulty in meeting their fixed charges. Hence if our judgement were based primarily on recent experience, we should have to advise against all investment in securities of limited value (excepting possibly short-term government bonds) and voice dictum that both bonds and stocks should be bought only as speculations, by people who know they are speculating and who can afford to take speculative risks"

Then they go on to say that:
"1927-1933 was a period of extreme laboratory test. The swing of the speculative pendulum during this period was of such unprecedented amplitude as to warrant the belief that it will not recur in similar intensity for a long time to come"

My thoughts:
1. Graham clearly advised people to stay out of stocks and bonds during the bubble period (specially the unsavvy ones).

2. They did not expect the bubbles to occur often, but guess what, we got one 70 years later and I do not see why their sound advise which applied then should not apply now. It seems though 3 generations later, the new generations need to learn about the perils of similar historical periods from the beginning
3. Once those lessons have been forgotten, the human sentiment governs market behavior again starting right at the bottom of the learning curve, exemplified by:
a. recent 500 point swings in the market we have seen
b. those disgusted with stocks now entering bond markets right possibly at their highs to relearn the same experience

So the question is then what heuristics investors might use to reenter the market for investment. At this point I been thinking to myself:

i. If one were incorrect about the right entry point, it is much safer to do it later than earlier because of the high risk with the Dow/S&P still remaining...
ii. The volatility/hope in the market may have to diminish to a significant extent on V shape/double bottom recovery etc, and the 200-400 point single days swings need to die out. Also means that volume on the exchanges needs to significantly diminish. If one were to assume that a bear will give back about 5-6 years of gains, we need to look at exchange volumes lower than that of 1996-1997. This volume should be:
1. corrected for all stock splits/new stocks issued in that period 1997-2002
2. lower than the corrected volume to account for people losing zest for stocks
It may come from some stocks reverse splitting, stopped trading etc, may be Nasdaq volume has started showing signs to converging in the direction but probably still far away from the target

Looks like history may be a good teacher if people are willing to look at it, however, the current calls for market bottoms, wild swings/speculation, valuations, still indicate there is significant reason for investors to be cautious about investing in the market yet. Past experience also shows that gold rise and real estate fall has lagged the market tops by significant number of years (2-5), so those are probably good things to watch to understand how is script is being played and how it is different from previous ones. My suspicion is that we still are at least 1.5-2 years away from the point where one would feel comfortable about investing in the market, but then I am speculating there and we know how much that is worth :-).
What do you think?
Best regards

Hemant