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To: jim black who wrote (22990)	8/23/2002 2:01:50 PM
From: Cogito Ergo Sum	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

Hi Jim, No argument from me. I know sometimes I wonder if I'm becoming too complacent again but my longer range plans say no. In my view what has begun with 9/11 is simply a rather flamboyant beginning.. Actually I fear that but you know you can only plan for the future but you gotta live in the here and now. The Holocaust was not one specific event but an aggregation of many heinous acts. Accordingly. My plans for the future include not living in any city. I hope a few years is enough time. I'm hoping also I'm wrong but I like the country better anyway. re: Swordfish nope.... Movies are only something for REALLY boring days for me. I rarely see a flick (except for kiddie ones) until years after release. But then he is nuts because he he is a scientologist. Yeah he and Cruise both. Heartily concur. regards Kastel

To: jim black who wrote (22990)	8/23/2002 5:10:37 PM
From: Moominoid	Respond to of 74559

I was just commenting on how the view looks closer to Ground Zero after moving here from Australia. Maybe if 300 people were killed in one attack in Tel Aviv, Ma'ariv would be running similar stories a year later. That is about the proportionate fraction of the metropolitan area population killed. Comparing fractions of national populations only 50 people would be killed in Israel for a comparative fraction of the Israeli population to die. They wouldn't be running those stories a year later. But perhaps the absolute numbers are more relevant than the relative numbers. However, a holocaust would be like 100 million Americans being killed.... David

To: jim black who wrote (22990)	8/23/2002 9:44:07 PM
From: Maurice Winn	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 74559

Jim, a problem with: <I admit with no shame the chauvinsitic totally Americocentric view espoused in the saying from ancient emperial Rome, "What matter if they hate us so long as they fear us."> Fear doesn't get customers or friends. The control by fear idea is fine for Caesar, Mao, Stalin, Hussein and Hitler. But the USA is a trading nation with profits a function of voluntary social relationships around the world. The autocrats get their money and power from theft at the barrel of a gun and that only works for hunter-gatherer, agricultural simple societies where wealth is found [like oil, gold or the like] or produced from land or other easily controlled and confiscated assets. I don't think fear is a suitable method of control and that's what Kissinger was saying with his emphasis on depending less on outright physical power and more on international mindset and co-operative approaches. Fear will work if the malevolent individuals can feel the fear, but if fear is generalized across huge numbers of people, hatred will soon follow and self-defence will be the outcome. The malevolent few will be hidden in the crowd and feel little fear - no more than the average person and probably less. The way to make them feel fear is to go hunting the malevolent matrix of individuals, large though it might be. Humans are on the cusp between our chimpoid antecedents and the biotelecosmictechdot.com cyberworld. It's a messy middling ground. Since the USA is the leader into that new world, it wouldn't be good for them to get stuck in the old world of tribal genocidal warfare any more than absolutely essential. Sure, it's essential to fight off the alligators while draining the swamp, but blowing up the swamp with everyone else it in too is not the way to eliminate the alligators. It's a tricky business. So far, so good [more or less] - the Taliban didn't last long. Saddam and Uday won't last long either. Mqurice

To: jim black who wrote (22990)	8/23/2002 11:56:56 PM
From: pezz	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 74559

<<"What matter if they hate us so long as they fear us." >> Yes indeed but our careful response ,time spent on gaining international support,etc. did not produce the fear needed. In effect we asked the international community permission to fight back.No one respects a victim who will hesitate to fight back no matter how powerful. Everyone respects rage generated from such an unprovoked heinous attack. An explosion of such rage would not only have generated fear but also gained respect. The terrorists themselves cannot of course be intimidated. But the leaders of nations such as Saddam can be. Saddam lives the good life with a dozen palaces etc. He will not give up power for an ill fated attack on the US generated from Iraqi soil.Talaban leader Omar himself did not live in a cave but a palace.9/11 may well not have happened if he had suspected his personal outcome.Without the support of terrorists nations supplying both staging and training grounds the ability to pull off large scale attacks will be nil.