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To: thames_sider who wrote (2434)	10/9/2002 9:00:07 AM
From: Solon	Respond to of 7689

"What we see now is the tragedy of a great country, with noble impulses, successful institutions, magnificent historical achievements and immense energies, which has become a menace to itself and to mankind." This is perhaps overstatement...but a breathless pause is in order...

To: thames_sider who wrote (2434)	10/9/2002 10:46:15 AM
From: average joe	Respond to of 7689

Have you ever seen this work on Arabs in America? "The Street Arab has all the faults and all the virtues of the lawless life he leads. Vagabond that he is, acknowledging no authority and owing no allegiance to anybody or anything, with his grimy fist raised against society whenever it tries to coerce him, he is as bright and sharp as the weasel, which, among all the predatory beasts, he most resembles." bartleby.com

To: thames_sider who wrote (2434)	10/9/2002 11:49:10 AM
From: E	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 7689

I think the Lieven piece is acute in many ways, although there is a certain minimization of the possibility that Saddam Hussein might supply doses of WMD for terrorists to use not only against Israel, which Lieven thinks fairly likely, but against the US as well. He says, There is little real fear, however, that Saddam Hussein will give those weapons to terrorists to use against the United States - though a more genuine fear that he might conceivably do so in the case of Israel. Nor is there any serious prospect that he would use them himself in an unprovoked attack on the US or Israel, because immediate annihilation would follow. That doesn't answer some important questions. Nobody thinks that Saddam is directly, openly, going to target the US. But that doesn't cover all the options. If he could cover his fingerprints, and if he felt he was losing everything (as he might not feel about having to live with a stringent inspection regime as opposed to an assault), he might well take the route of supplying units of WMD to terrorists who hate us. (Not that I believe he would actually cooperate with stringent inspections.) As for Lieven's proposition that the basic goal of the war exercise is to "retain an absolute certainty of being able defend the Gulf against an Iraqi attack, but, more important, to retain for the US and Israel a free hand for intervention in the ME as a whole," -- this seems very plausible. The business about the interaction of the agendas of the religious right and the Israeli lobby has been pointed out before, even on a recent 60 Minutes, I think. Here's a link to a Maureen Dowd column on that subject. From last Sunday's NYT: nytimes.com

To: thames_sider who wrote (2434)	10/9/2002 12:53:31 PM
From: Rainy_Day_Woman	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 7689

......attempt to understand I think you were less snobby when you were a practicing nudist

To: thames_sider who wrote (2434)	10/9/2002 1:11:30 PM
From: Lazarus_Long	Respond to of 7689

Where are you going? Get back here! - one of The Usual Suspects The indifference of the US public to serious discussion of foreign or security affairs, and the negligence and ideological rigidity of the US media and policy community make searching debate on such issues extremely difficult, and allow such manipulation to succeed. What does this ignorant idiot think has been going on in this country since 9/11- -and long before that? He thinks the US public had no idea where the ME and Iraq were during the Gulf War? And why we were there? Does he think we had no idea where Europe was during the early 1940's when we were over there saving your butts? How many British day laborers could discuss world politics? Rather condescending. But I'd say he really illustrates his own ignorance. which, like the Israeli lobby, is deeply intertwined with the Bush Administration. Now I find that a bit surprising. Evidence? Jews tend to be liberal and Democrats. They tend to entwine around the Democratic Party, not the Republican Party. And particularly not someone like Bush. They would vomit at the thought. And if THAT thesis is wrong, that whole thesis falls apart. He pegged his entire argument on it. He admits this here: If on top of this the Republicans can permanently woo the Jewish vote away from the Democrats Despite this, the demand for the suppression of anti-Israeli publications, broadcasts and activities has been widely echoed in the US media. I must have been sleeping for the last year, thames. I don't remember a SINGLE thing along that line. Not one. Seems to me you Europeans were quite happy to have the US intervene in the Balkans- -your own backyard. You sat and watched that mess for at least a year without doing a thing. You had the capability. Why didn't you? Seems to me you have no problem with US intervention- -as long as you benefit. Tough. You don't get to call this shot. And even if growth resumes, the transformation of the economy is almost certain to continue. This will mean the incomes of the 'middle classes' (which in American terminology includes the working proletariat) will continue to decline and the gap between them and the plutocracy will continue to increase. Now that's rather stupid. This guy knows what technological developments are coming and what their effects will be? WOW! So did he predict the computer revolution and the internet and the web 40 years ago? but most German people in 1914 would at least have been able to find France on a map. I know he wants to assume we are a bunch of ignorant savages- -but we're not. Did he fail to notice that the US is a magnet for students from foreign countries? They come here to get dumb? Frankly, while there is something worthwhile in that article, much of it impresses me as wild conjecture and allegation. The parts that aren't simply false. And it impresses me as a rant by a European pissed off because the sun now does set on the British Empire. And pretty quickly too.