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To: Tom D who wrote (61844)	10/14/2002 12:05:40 AM
From: Elroy	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 77400

the real story of women in Islam is one of progressive liberation and elevation of status. You want to provide some supporting evidence for this outrageous claim?

To: Tom D who wrote (61844)	10/14/2002 8:12:10 AM
From: RetiredNow	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 77400

OT That's an interesting post, Tom. But there are parts of it that are simply not true. If you want to know the truth about what Islam thinks of women, I suggest reading the Quran. I have. It's shocking. If you want to know why the Middle East is full of tinpot dictators and tyrannys, take a look at the histories of Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebenon, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. In Iran, you have the Ayatollah. He is not someone that was made by western cultures. On the contrary, he wants a pure Islamic state. Look at the repression that has ensued because of it. In Afghanistan, they wanted an Islamic state, so the Taliban gave it to them. Look at how their women were treated until they were liberated by the U.S. In Pakistan, Musharraf gave the people the vote to take over the day to day affairs of a civilian government. The ones getting the most votes are the hardline Islamic clerics whose stated goal is to create an Islamic state with the hard line rules against crime and against women. In Saudi Arabia, they have an Islamic state that is one of the most stringent next to Afghanistan's previous one, but the country is the most modern. Despite that, it managed to produce 15 of the 19 suicide hijackers and Osama, the world's worst mass murderer since Hitler. I think it's convenient for people in the Middle East to blame the U.S. and Western countries for all their problems. However, the fact is that there is an enormous amount of envy of the U.S. and our country's wealth, not to mention the progressiveness of Western countries. THe whole world is marching forward, except the countries of the Middle East. So of course, they have to find someone to blame other than themselves. Extremist Muslims can't stand the fact that freedom of religion and governments that seperate religion from state are the most successful in providing freedom and economic prosperity. They can't stand it, so they try to destroy instead of looking at their constant pursuit of a regressive and repressive Islamic state and it's failures. Everyone talks about the brilliance of Islam's great civilization, but that was centuries ago. We could also talk about the brilliance of the Roman Empire, but what difference does it make in today's world? The most aggressive and murderous group of people today are the Islamic extremists. Everwhere they are, they are trying to create Islamic states, despite the fact that they are murdering innocent civilians and impinging on the sovereign nations within which they commit their crimes. Is that what we are calling a great civilization? Because from where I'm standing all I see is a throwback to the dark ages when a bunch of thugs could form a band of gangsters and rape their surroundings at will. I don't see any brilliance here. I see a tremendous amount of failure in a culture that promotes this type of behavior. It would be different if the majority of Islamic people in the Middle East condemned these activities, but they don't. The latest poll taken in the Middle East showed that greater than 90% of the people thought Osama was a hero and holy warrior. As far as Mohammed, he had many many wives, including one who was VERY young. Do you really think women approve of the type of behavior Mohammed displayed when he was alive? No modern woman I know of would approve of that type of behavior or value system. Only women lacking a society that would back her up would submit to that kind of humiliation and injustice. So Kennedy was wrong. Some Americans know quite a bit about Islam. In fact, we know quite a bit more about Islam than we ever wanted to know since Sept 11th. Americans aren't stupid and we do try to learn and understand when confronted with something new. But at the end of the day, we have to use common sense. All the evidence points to some fundamental flaws in the religion itself and in way the religion is used in today's Middle Eastern cultures. If we put aside all the political correctness for a second and just debate the merits of the case, it's very hard to justify much of the evidence against it. So my advice is don't read some watered down book like The Complete Idiot's Guide to Understanding Islam and think you know the religion. Go to the source, the Quran. Read it cover to cover and then come back and tell us what you think. Don't try to justify anything you read, just take it at face value and you'll know what I mean.

To: Tom D who wrote (61844)	10/14/2002 9:36:29 AM
From: Suma	Respond to of 77400

Years ago ( in the eighties ) required reading in a Great Books Club I took after retirement dealt with Islam and its influence on the Western World . I found it most enlighening. I am afraid that the zealots aka Bin Laden have destroyed the credibility for most Americans with regard to this religion and it is a shame. Some of our right wingers in this country ...from which McVeigh emerged are no better. It is so important to have an understanding of other's beliefs, religions, customs etc. There was once a saying I remember from working days, IF YOU REALLY KNEW ME YOU COULD NOT HATE ME. This I think is applicable to all human beings. It is not all BLACK AND WHITE. I concur with your posts. Suma And NOW BACK TO CISCO.... TO HOLD OR SELL.