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To: Solon who wrote (2898)	10/20/2002 9:49:11 AM
From: E	Respond to of 7689

You are one smart dood.

To: Solon who wrote (2898)	10/20/2002 1:43:07 PM
From: TimF	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 7689

What an intersting perspective. So if one is required by law to eschew murder, rape, trespass on property and the like...such decent obedience to virtue would not be "voluntary" in your books, as people are required to act in a non-injurious fashion in our society. So how does one assign a moral quality to one whose actions are deemed to be not voluntary? On what basis do we assign or assess accountability if there is no voluntary basis for an action? I do have a choice over my actions. But would you call handing over your money to an armed mugger a voluntary transaction? I would not even if I did make a decision to hand it over, rather then try to run away or fight back and take a risk of getting shot. If you are compelled to do something its not completely voluntary. You don't have a choice or your choice is between obeying and imprisonment or death. This whole branch of our conversation started when I said "it is wrong to seize a big chunk of someone's income or wealth even if they are rich." You responded that it was not seizing because taxes are voluntary. But taxes are required, so if it is an actual seizure or someone is compelled to go along by the threat of seizure or other penalty. If you don't like the word seizure then I'll say instead that it is wrong to require that someone pay such a big chunk of their income. In your conception, however, a geat many of everyday choices and actions are NOT voluntary simply because they are required or commanded by others. It depends on what definition you use. dictionary.com vol·un·tar·y Pronunciation Key (vln-tr) adj. 1. Done or undertaken of one's own free will: a voluntary decision to leave the job. 2. Acting or done willingly and without constraint or expectation of reward: a voluntary hostage; voluntary community work. 3. Normally controlled by or subject to individual volition: voluntary muscle contractions. 4. Capable of making choices; having the faculty of will. 5. Supported by contributions or charitable donations rather than by government appropriations: voluntary hospitals. 6. Law. 1. Without legal obligation or consideration: a voluntary conveyance of property. 2. Done deliberately; intentional: voluntary manslaughter. Many acts are clearly voluntary, others are involuntary. Paying taxes and meeting other legal requirements is voluntary by some definitions and not voluntary by 2 or 6-1. (or 5 but its not really relevant) Tim

To: Solon who wrote (2898)	10/20/2002 9:53:47 PM
From: Lazarus_Long	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 7689

Solon: Taxes are not voluntary. Anytime you think they are, let your gov'ts know that you refuse to pay them. Then don't pay. Send me your cell number. I'll write to you. Laws are not voluntary. They are laws. You do what they require or take the consequences. You're better than this, Solon. You're POV on this is silly. Now in law they talk of voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter...and the like. True. After you fail to pay, you can try an insanity defense. If it works, they'll lock you up in the nut house. Probably for much longer than you would have spent in jail. After you're incarceration is finished, let me know how voluntary you think taxes are. "You have to give it to the government. If you don't, they'll come and take it." Voluntary? A contribution to United Way is voluntary. They cannot legally force you to give them money. Any time you think that is true of government also, don't pay your taxes.