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To: Amy J who wrote (172400)1/9/2003 9:24:46 AM
From: willcousa  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 186894
 
I think the purpose of the tax plan is to force the big high tech companies to quit sitting on their cash - use it or lose it - to the shareholders.



To: Amy J who wrote (172400)1/9/2003 9:31:11 AM
From: steve harris  Respond to of 186894
 
Amy,
re:Bush's tax package

Do you have a copy of the plan?

Steve



To: Amy J who wrote (172400)1/9/2003 9:34:31 AM
From: Road Walker  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 186894
 
Amy,

re: If Bush wanted to help investors and help the economy, why didn't he simply provide a tax cut for investors - like a Capital gains tax cut?

Actually, he did. Under his proposal, when you sell a stock, you wouldn't pay cap gains on the portion of the sale price that the corporation has already paid taxes on. Confusing, YES (there is fairly good article about it in today's WSJ, page A4).

But essentially what he is proposing is that there will be no double taxation, regardless of if the corporation uses it's profits for dividends or for whatever.

There are probably a lot of folks that understand this a lot better than I do (GV?). But on the surface, it looks like a pretty good program.

If we should be cutting taxes and raising spending is another issue...

John



To: Amy J who wrote (172400)1/9/2003 10:26:42 AM
From: The Duke of URLĀ©  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 186894
 
Generally speaking, the elimination of the double taxation on dividends WILL TIE THE INDIVIUAL INVESTOR MUCH CLOSER TO THE COMPANY.

If one could generalize the "Enron Problem" which to a certain extent was in many companies, and which is in part caused by over-reliance on borrowing and which is a result of the disjunction of the shareholder and the corporation, would have been lessened.

A company's reliance on debt will be reduced vis a vis the equity market.

The reduction of double taxation of dividends would go very far toward rebuilding the equity markets, which give the small investor much more opportunity and will eventually result in encouraging creative new entities.

I have railed for 3 or 4 years now on this thread against those things which caused the market crash. I have studied this problem for years.

What I am surprised at is that the Bush elimination comes at the shareholder level, not at the corporate level where it should be.

I think Chuck Schwab suggested to Bush that it be at the corporate level, or at least he assumed that that is the way Bush understood it.

The only thing I can think of is that Bush felt that he could not possibly sell it as a corporate deduction, so he did the next best thing.



To: Amy J who wrote (172400)1/9/2003 8:40:34 PM
From: Proud_Infidel  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 186894
 
Amy,

The tax free dividend helps old industries that emphasize dividends, the old money, not high-tech

You are one of the very few who believe this and I agree with you 100%. Instead of rewarding innovation, and risk-taking, the current plan rewards old-economy, smokestack companies. Instead of rewarding innovation and growth, people are now looking for high-tech firms to start handing out dividend checks when this money needs to be reinvested in the business.

Why do so few people see this?

Brian



To: Amy J who wrote (172400)1/9/2003 10:04:36 PM
From: Joe NYC  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 186894
 
Amy J,

When it comes to capital gains, I think it is more important to introduce indexing for inflation that doing rate tax cuts (unless you are talking about elimination of capital gains completely). This way, one would be paying tax only on real gains, instead of the current situation where taxpayers are paying taxes because of the Fed's failure to maintain price stability. The indexing is not a hot issue now, when the inflation is relatively under control, but IMO, it was one of the reasons the market was such a horrible place to leave your money in throughout the high inflation 70s.

I think indexing for inflation would help the startups, because the original investors may be in for 10 to 15 years before there are any real gains to realize, and even at modest 3%, the inflation over 15 years amounts to over 55% of the selling price.

So suppose you are selling $1,000,000 worth of stock, and the basis is negligable, you are paying taxes on $450,000 of real gains, and $550,000 on inflation. Indexing would eliminate taxation on the $550,000 completely, meaning that effectively, the tax bill would be only 45% of what it would be now (equivalent to more than 50% rate cut).

But obviously, there are political pressures, which dictate that a bullet point list of points is prepared. Each bullet point has either a price tag (if a new spending is proposed) or foregoing revenue, and indexing is a huge $ amount, while it is a bullet point that nobody really understands.

On paying / not paying dividends, I think there is a lot of arrogance and contempt for shareholder at high tech and hard driving companies (Enrons). The idea of the owners of the companies actually seing some of their earnings is something the high tech CEOs don't want to hear about. They want to play with the big bucks, all of the money. They don't want to share.

But it is probably a more fundamental than that. I think the basic idea is for a business to earn profit. The idea to go for growth / go for broke works in 1 out of 1,000 companies, doesn't for 999. Many of the 999 could still be in business if they paid more attention to fundamentals.

And in other words the go for broke approach is just a late 1990s schemes to separate the investors from their money, because a lot of the high tech start-ups generated very little real value. The high stock valuations were just the result of investors being duped.

If there is anything about the stimulus package related to stock owning (other than indexing), I think it should be a more effective way to deal with capital losses. That would benefit the high tech investors a lot more. For many, it may take more than 1 lifetime to recoup their losses at $3,000 per year per person or couple. BTW, this is another idea for a good tax cut. Why is the $3,000 limit the same for 2 married people as for one single person?

Joe

PS: does anyone have a link to a good summary of the latest Bush proposal in a raw form? All I have come across is a lot of articles where the info is "pre-digested" by some journalist.



To: Amy J who wrote (172400)1/9/2003 10:22:32 PM
From: J_F_Shepard  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 186894
 
Not all dividends are going to be tax free....

nytimes.com

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MARKET PLACE
Bush's Plan Taxes Certain Dividends, Fine Print Reveals
By FLOYD NORRIS

[N] ot all corporate profits are created equal under President Bush's tax plan. Neither are all dividends.

Details of the president's plan show that dividends will continue to be taxed when paid by companies that do not pay federal income taxes themselves. Companies with losses or those that use various techniques that eliminate taxable income will find they have no tax-free dividends to hand out.
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For the first time, in other words, companies that pay federal income taxes may seem more attractive to investors than those that find ways to avoid paying the taxes.

"There is less pressure on the company to shelter its income, because it will inhibit its ability to pay out dividends without tax," said Pam Olson, the assistant Treasury secretary for tax policy.

The president's plan also came up with a way for shareholders of profitable tax-paying companies to get a break even if the companies decide to distribute little or no cash in dividend payments. Companies that choose to reinvest in their businesses rather than pay dividends will pass on to their shareholders a tax break that will reduce the capital gain they report when they sell their stock.

That twist, not widely understood when the plan's details were first disclosed, means that the tax bill may benefit holders of new-economy companies like Microsoft that pay no dividends as well as owners of old-economy companies like General Motors that do pay them. But owners of companies like Tyco International that move offshore to reduce their tax bills will not benefit.

"What we are trying to do is eliminate the double tax on corporate dividends," said Ms. Olson, referring to the fact that under current law companies pay tax on corporate profits and then shareholders pay taxes on dividends distributed from those profits. But she said the government did not want to give breaks to investors in companies that did not pay corporate taxes.

But gaining what the administration views as equity in that regard means that something that sounded simple ? ending taxes on dividends ? will create more complexity in the tax law. Companies that pay dividends would have to inform investors just how much of the payout can be deemed to come from taxed profits earned in 2002 or later. That part of the payout would be tax exempt; the rest would be taxable.

One unfortunate impact would be that companies that are temporarily unprofitable ? perhaps because of a recession ? could find their dividends suddenly taxable, making them less attractive to investors and further depressing their share prices.

"Going unprofitable is really the unfortunate part," said Ms. Olson in an interview yesterday. "Shareholders would be happy to continue to get the dividends."

Ms. Olson emphasized that only if companies paid taxes, in 2002 and later, would their dividends take on a tax-free status for shareholders.

Another surprise for many taxpayers may be that many securities called preferred stock will not pay dividends, at least as defined by the tax law. Those payouts, considered interest, will continue to be taxable under the law. Investors choosing among preferred issues will need to investigate carefully which issues qualify.

The complexity stems from the need to prevent what some officials see as abuses, and to assure that shareholders of companies that retain and reinvest their profits are not treated worse than those of companies that pay out dividends.

"Failure to provide for all these things could result in windfall receipts of tax-free accumulated earnings, or create undesirable pressure on corporations to distribute accumulated earnings," said David Hariton, a tax partner at Sullivan & Cromwell. "But implementation of all of these rules might prove complex and difficult to administer."

The only exception to companies having paid income tax would be the use of the foreign tax credit. Companies would be able to treat taxes paid to foreign governments, and reflected in that credit, as if they were taxes paid to the United States.

But companies that use other methods to avoid paying federal income taxes would discover that they had also eliminated the right of their shareholders to get tax breaks.

Treasury officials said the proposal largely followed a plan laid out in a 1992 Treasury study, during the administration of the first President Bush.

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The most striking new addition to the pantheon of corporate finance, were the new proposal to be enacted, would be the "deemed dividend." A company that did not pay out all the dividends that it could pay on a tax-exempt basis ? choosing instead to reinvest the money in its business ? would be able to declare a deemed dividend. That deemed dividend would be treated as if the shareholder had immediately reinvested it and would allow the investor to claim she had spent that extra money buying the stock. That would provide an investor with a tax break when the stock was sold.
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Just how much a company could pay in tax-free dividends would be based on the taxes it actually paid. For example, assume a company paid $35 million in federal income taxes. Because there is a 35 percent corporate income tax rate, that would indicate it had a $100 million pretax profit, and had $65 million it could distribute in tax-free dividends. Any more payments would be taxable.

If, on the other hand, the company did not pay federal income taxes, then all its dividends would be taxable.

Ms. Olson said any company that paid some taxable dividends and some nontaxable would have to do so for all its shareholders. It could not assert that the tax-free dividends went to one group of shareholders, while the tax-exempt ones went to another group, like preferred shareholders or owners of one class of common stock. "This is pro rata," she said. "There are no games being played."

Here's how it might work: If a company had the right to pay $65 million in taxable dividends, and paid just that amount in cash dividends, all the dividends would be tax exempt. If it chose to pay $130 million in dividends, however, half of the dividends would be subject to tax at the investor's ordinary income tax rate.

On the other hand, if the company chose to pay out just $15 million in cash dividends, it could declare a deemed dividend of $50 million. Shareholders would then be able to increase their tax basis. For example, if that deemed dividend came to $1 a share, the tax basis for an investor who had paid $40 a share for the stock would be raised to $41. When the stock was sold, any capital gain would be only the amount above $41.

Ms. Olson said she expected that companies would arrange to pay out, as real or deemed dividends, the entire amount they were eligible to pay out every year. She noted that a company that did otherwise would be needlessly penalizing an investor who sold stock.

It is possible that some companies might not want to declare the entire amount every year, however, arguing that was beneficial to long-term holders. A Treasury official said it had not been decided if that would be allowed. If it was allowed, the company could then use the undeclared reserves to allow it to pay a tax-free dividend in a year when the company lost money and did not pay any taxes. In that way, it could create an expectation of a continuing stream of tax-exempt cash dividends.

Wall Street has devoted a lot of effort in recent years to creating hybrid securities that would look like preferred stock on corporate balance sheets and thereby make the company appear to have more equity, but whose payments would qualify as tax-deductible interest payments for the company.

In fact, said William Scapell, a fixed-income analyst at Merrill Lynch, 72 percent of the existing securities that are called preferred stock fall into that category. Ms. Olson said that since companies were deducting interest on the payments, the dividends would not be tax free.

Another 13 percent of preferred issues either come from foreign companies or from real estate investment trusts, and would not be eligible for tax-free status.

Only the remaining 15 percent of existing preferred stock is eligible for tax-exempt dividend payments. But Mr. Scapell said that some companies might choose to redeem existing hybrid securities and issue new preferred shares that would qualify for tax-exempt dividend payments.

One area in which the Bush proposal is not balanced is in its treatment of companies with past profits or losses. Past undistributed profits do not affect a company's ability to pay out tax-exempt dividends on current income. But past losses, which show up as tax-loss carry-forwards, will prevent companies from paying tax-exempt dividends from current income, so long as the use of those carry-forwards allows the company to avoid paying taxes.