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To: Maurice Winn who wrote (27788)	1/25/2003 4:41:30 AM
From: Raymond Duray	Respond to of 74559

On the subject of the U.S. military's extreme arrogance: Message 18489704 ******* Re: When one is supercool, being on the end of a leash must not be as pleasant as being free as a bird. Also, being at the sharp end, with delays in approval to defend oneself, could be quite annoying. These men are trained murderers. It's hard to control them. Not that the U.S. military tries very hard. W/R/T defending themselves, you need to get a grip. The best defense in their situation once they mistakenly concluded that they were being fired upon was to follow standard procedure. I.e. to scramble out of harm's way and call in a strike from a land based cruise missile, B-52 aerial bomb from high altitude or dispatch an A-130 gunship. Anything but the cowboy fighter jock stupidity that they engaged in. They weren't in hot pursuit of what they supposed to be an anti-aircraft gun. They clearly violated all common sense with their willfully aggressive attack.

To: Maurice Winn who wrote (27788)	1/25/2003 11:54:25 AM
From: AC Flyer	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 74559

Mq: >>But you shouldn't expect other than a wet bus ticket tap on the wrist<< In this case there will be a precedent-setting court martial of both Schmidt and Umbach, imho. Turns out I'm on the same side of this issue as Ray Duray. Ray's there because of his stopped-clock dogma (all US soldiers are murderers, blah de blah). I'm there because I've read the original military report on this incident and it's clear that Major Schmidt, who like Umbach is an Air National Guard pilot btw, not an Air Force regular, violated the rules of engagement and also disobeyed a clear instruction from an AWACS operator to wait for a clarification of the situation. From the Air Force perspective he violated ROEs, disregarded a clear instruction properly conveyed through the chain of command and recklessly endangered himself and his aircraft. Umbach, as the flight commander, failed to exercise appropriate (any) control over Schmidt. A common-sense reading of the military report also suggests that Schmidt exaggerated the threat he felt himself to be under both at the time and afterwards and that he did not consider for one moment, as he clearly should have, that the ground fire was from friendlies. The only real breakdown in military procedure was from Schmidt, who was apparently just itching to drop his ordnance on something. The military report, by the way, describes Schmidt's use of his laser-guided 500 lb. bomb as "technically proficient." The impact point was within a few feet of the position of some members of the Canadian squad. centcom.mil Schmidt is going to jail, imo. Umbach may escape jail but his bottom will be smarting for the rest of his life. Post script: ask yourself, would the military of any other country post an investigation report of this kind on a web site with unrestricted access, for the entire world, including Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein and Raymond Duray, to see?