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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (103197)	6/27/2003 3:07:32 PM
From: KLP	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

And what good is any form of international parliament if its councils issue mandates that it has no intent of enforcing?? That's the insanity of the situation, IMO. Why spend the money for the UN if it is only a debating party? As you mentioned, they have no standing armed forces of their own...they only are as good as the member nations. Many of the member nations don't want to support any military action anyplace in the world. No, they would much prefer to call on the US and a few allies to do the job. AND THEN B**ch the entire time about the 'aggressive' US.

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (103197)	6/28/2003 1:22:53 PM
From: marcos	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 281500

Pretty pitiful show on WMDs so far Hawk, presently it is clear that there was no clear and present danger of them as was strongly hinted at, nay stated outright, by the war marketing crowd .... so the gap to which i was referring, was between the advertising and the product delivered .... can't return the merchandise and get your money back on a deal like this though, this is the trouble, once you've got your troops occupying hostile territory, they're stuck there .... 'wherever you go, there you are' Things like this, you're better off going with friends .... fine saturday morning here, don't feel like getting into legalistic technicalities of it, not sure i would anyway, don't think it all that important .... basic facts of the case are these - 1. people in power in the US wanted a war 2. they failed to convince their allies of its merits 3. they got their war anyway, just took it 4. now it's theirs To such extent that the UN could not arrest in time any of the first three factors, the UN is a failure ... quod erat demonstrandum, if you've accepted the premise earlier that the less war the better, which granted, not all have .... many of the Rest of Us see your neocons falling into line with bin Laden's agenda, of setting the umma against the infidel by stimulating the latter to invade and occupy the former, in hasty and ill-conceived manner with little thought or plan for the future of occupied territories What works, works, and what doesn't work is bad .... the current UN doesn't work, i granted you that right off [although as CB points out, parts of it like the WHO do work very well] [maybe we could just sack all politicians involved and replace them with doctors] [that's it! - their first rule is 'do no harm', what a concept!] .... time will tell, but it would appear possible that down the road there will be grounds for you granting me that your Rule by PNAC is not working so well either ..... hope i'm wrong on that, better to lose an argument than quality of life, but it's looking that way, and it probably will until US nationals in general listen less to the Wolfowitzes and Rumsfelds and more to the Bilows and Rogerses ... we shall see .... cheers

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (103197)	6/28/2003 4:18:20 PM
From: Maurice Winn	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

Hawk, re <The UN issued what can only be analogized as a binding mandate, enforceable under international law > Since the USA doesn't recognize international law, it's puzzling why the rest of us should. I know the USA prefers laws for rich and poor, strong and weak with the poor and weak being a modern day source of feudalism fodder, but there's been a centuries long trend in the civilized world for universal laws. Weirdly, the serfs don't like being second class or third class citizens. Strange though that might seem. How to create a human legal system is the issue that matters. How to move from the constant warring, conflict and confrontation of the olde European system of shifting alliances in little fiefdoms. The structure of the UN, with despotic regimes of hell having a say or even being chairman, and a WWII Victor's Club holding vetoes, and the toughest gang now doing pre-emptive strikes against anyone they fancy, like any common street gang, holding prisoners incommunicado with no human rights other than an unchallenged triad of military tribunal, is obviously useless. The USA has set itself up as a target and soldiers are now being shot. It's time for the UN in Iraq Hawk. Get the boys [and the few girls] out to safety. It's not worth it to steal the oil [or at least all the production business]. The USA is now safe from Saddam's WMD so they can leave, with the brand spanking new reconstituted UN in charge. Winning wars is easy. Any idiot can smash people and things. Just push the red button. It's building things and making civil society which is the hard part. Like the USA, I don't accept UN law. It's an antidemocratic system of privilege and old-time power, busy-bodying and bureaucracy. The absurd Milosevic trial shows the uselessness of it. It's just jobs for the legal boys and girls who will keep playing until all the money's gone. If King George II can't be hauled before the court, along with anyone else, then it's not acceptable to me. The USA is in the box seat to get a new UN going. If they don't, they will continue to see what has always happened with empire. Potshots at the unelected rulers who bully and attack the serfs and enslaved and confiscate their property. The only way to suppress opposition is to get up to the elbows in gore [a bit like Saddam did for so long]. Which some people are comfortable with and even actively enjoy. The USA should now establish a UN Conference for Reconstitution - in Iraq, where they can see for themselves the consequences of political and civil failure. Mqurice