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Politics : Sharks in the Septic Tank -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Lazarus_Long who wrote (80024)	12/31/2003 3:50:49 PM
From: one_less	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 82486

"You did? When?" Ok...Let me begin a-new... OK. Part I It is not so much that anyone can prove eternity and its conditions since we are bound by experiencing things via time space and matter restrictions that are temporal (temporary). However it is possible to come to an understanding of eternity and what it means to you. There is something associated, or enmeshed, with my biology; consensus among us has come to refer to IT as a soul. So, let me begin with the soul. While granting due recognition to Mo-Town music and not wanting to take anything away from that, everyone has a soul. Was IT always associated with my body. Well, regarding my Earthly existence, it seems to have been at least as far back as the womb I emerged from. And from what I can tell it will be until this body is dead. Before? After? Yes. I am convinced that my soul continues to exist before and after I occupy this body. I will get to the before and after part later but for now lets look at this thing called Soul… Can we see it? No. Can we touch it? No. Is it something physical science can deal with directly? No. Yet, there is something beyond the biology of our physical bodies that is experienced personally (self evidence) and that others who know us have a sense of. Self-evidence is essential to knowing anything. You know even that physical tricks (illusions) or flaws in the process must be considered when regarding proofs of anything regarding physical science and that you must personally make those determinations. Without ever seeing me, you have a sense of who I am, what kind of character I have, etc. Via, my own experience, I can testify that no new or changed person has inhabited the essence of me ever. Is IT (soul) a constant in this ever-changing experience? It certainly seems to be. Does my experience revolve only around the physical impacts and perceptions of the physical experience or is there an awareness that goes beyond physical growth and survival? Of course there is. There is an awareness that life is purposeful, that a principled life is worth living and that it has meaning in and of itself beyond surviving to the next meal. The only thing blocking that awareness is fear. Some people live their whole lives in fear of not having enough to survive well. Then guess what, they don’t survive and often die suffering from diseases caused by their accumulation of stuff meant to keep them from what they feared. That is one of the saddest ironies I can think of. But, that alone should be an incentive to think about what is going on in this existence. We all make the choice to hold material wealth as the highest value or to focus more on what some people call righteousness. It is not a choice of one or the other mind you. We all need to gather wealth and we can’t get by very long by treating our fellow creatures badly.

To: Lazarus_Long who wrote (80024)	12/31/2003 3:59:16 PM
From: one_less	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

"You did? When?" Part II Well lets look at the Universe. Is there an end to it? When ever we think we can determine the bounds, some rascal comes up with a better science for looking further. Is there a smallest aspect when we look through a microscope. Those same rascals keep messing with that problem. Where does it begin and end physically? And just as importantly when did it begin and end physically? Creation??? What a concept. If we try to get a physical universe from nothing we fail. So, there had to be a state or condition of 'things' that existed before the state of things that we currently experience, and something that existed before that to bring about the previous conditions, etc, etc, etc. This is true both for the physical universe and for your personal human condition. Call it Karma if you like. One, difference... You know when your physical human condition began and that there was no physical Laz of any kind before that.

To: Lazarus_Long who wrote (80024)	12/31/2003 4:13:05 PM
From: one_less	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

You did? When?" Part III Creation??? We have to look at what is beyond the furthest thing. Beyond the beyond, before the before, and after the furthest after. With physical science we are limited to the use of Time, Space, and Matter. All of these factors are must be regarded as ‘temporal’ (having limitations in their temporary and changing states). Have you ever seen Time? What does it look like? Well we know how it works we all have clocks. We all have seen things come and go ‘over time.’ But our experience is never anything but in the present. Time is an abstract concept that is useful for explaining change. We can learn about the past by studying it or pondering it in the present. We can speculate on the future by ruminating about the possibilities, but we do it in the present. So, no one ever actually experiences past or future except through the presence of time. In that sense even our memories and hopes are strictly locked into a present frame of reference. Even so, as human beings bound in time, we must consider what is, what was before, and what was before that, etc to deal with the question of creation.

To: Lazarus_Long who wrote (80024)	12/31/2003 4:29:53 PM
From: one_less	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

"You did? When?" Part IV We think we know that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. It can only change its form right? So we really can’t have a true creation of the universe that is explained via physics. It had to have existed in some form to create the existing form. Using what we know about time, space, and matter then, we end up with an un-ending creating, and changing process. Something does not come from nothing. Even if you don’t believe at this point in a God of Creation you end up with a concept that of eternity. If you can accept the concept of eternity your eyes will open to many possibilities including that you have an eternal soul. But you ask, If God created the universe, where did God come from? Keep in mind what we know about the Universe…It is temporal (temporary). Temporary and eternal are incompatible concepts unless one folds into the other. If God creates the universe, then the limitations of the universe do not bind God. A temporary universe can exist in eternity; and God, who is eternal, can create it without being bound by the limitations he places on it. Time does not bind God. Nothing needs to exist before eternity, because before, and after are abstract concepts useful only in the temporal sense (the temporal universe).

To: Lazarus_Long who wrote (80024)	12/31/2003 4:53:09 PM
From: one_less	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 82486

"You did? When?" Part V And so we have the concept of eternity which can’t be refuted. We also, have the idea of living principles mentioned in Part I. This is the tricky part. The members of a tribe can treat each other well as a matter of best survival practice and the most likely means to building material wealth (while serving the members of other tribes for dinner). Certainly it is possible to have a relative values system that incorporates treating others in a nice way and that holds materialism as the greatest goal in life. Our history does not show how having a benevolent care taking regard for creation part and parcel would be beneficial. Historically we only had a local grasp on what was going on in the world which to our ancestors must have seemed to contain unlimited resources. Yet, we have been advised that we should not waste, pollute, corrupt of abuse the creatures of the earth. We have been told to be kind and compassionate toward creatures and fellows. How is this supported through what our ancestors knew of the Earth and its creatures? In modern times we can confirm the results of waste, pollution, corruption and abuse of resources and creatures. So, we when we look at ancient teachings that would seem to contradict and fly in the face of what would produce a comfortable life, we just go Wow. Then when we see that the messengers took no credit for bringing us this wisdom we go wow again. In fact when we find people promoting some pretense of fortune telling, or wisdom for personal gain we tend to find the rest of their message to be corrupted. Well, that's for starters...