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Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Stan who wrote (36388)	1/13/2004 8:58:42 PM
From: Berry Picker	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

If I may interject >>What does Matthew 27:52,53 say then? "and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints that had fallen asleep were raised; and coming forth out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered into the holy city and appeared unto many."<< I think you are trying to relate two unrelated events for one thing. Yes men were 'resurrected' in that verse but I do not believe they went to heaven but that they are as was Samuel when the witch at the request of Saul rose him from the ‘grave’(underworld – not place of burial) 1 Samuel 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. Stan - note that the person is being brought up not down from heaven Saul may have asked for someone dead for centuries.. the condition of the physical body was irrelevant. 1 Samuel 28:14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. 1 Samuel 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? Some people think that the souls of dead saints went to heaven and that when they were resurrected they returned to be united with their bodies. That error starts with error. Because they think that they went to heaven - resurrection makes no sense except it be talking about the body that was left behind. If we star with a false premise we must reach a false conclusion. But once people realize that NO ONE COULD go to heaven before the Blood of Christ and that hades and paradise were completely different places than heaven where God is then they can retrace their thinking. Saul was "brought up" from his resting (sleeping) place. Saul is said in this vision to be "an old man" and "wearing a mantle" Samuel's mother brought him a new mantle which she made every year when she would visit him as a child when Eli was raising him. (Interesting?) In any case Samuel returned to paradise and so did those you are mentioning in Matthew 27:52 1 Samuel 28:3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land. Samuel was not just freshly buried - the lamenting was all done this however would not prove that his body was rotted but if after only 3 days in the case of Lazurus - the body should stink then let's think - this should be at least months later? Reese dates Samuel's death at 1027 BC but this resurrection at 1026 BC and the death of Saul at 1025 BC??? How long was Samuel’s body returning to dust? I honestly can’t say for a certainty but a lot happened between Samuel's death and the army coming against Israel - 2 yrs?? 1 Samuel 28:19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines. Samuel’s physical body would have at least been somewhat rotted. An important point to note is this WHERE was Samuel buried and WHERE was this "body" brought up? 1 Samuel 28:7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor. 1 Samuel 25:1 And Samuel died; and all the Israelites were gathered together, and lamented him, and buried him in his house at Ramah. And David arose, and went down to the wilderness of Paran. Samuel was not raised where his “bones” were laid. If we say this is a different kind of resurrection than a future one That is fine but then how do we prove that the resurrection that You are using in your argument is not a ‘different kind’? The body Samuel had when this witch 'resurrected' him had appearance it appeared as "an old man wearing a coat" but was it flesh and blood? I think not... the body came up - I would trust through the ground. That is not a flesh and blood body. Is Samuel's resurrection spiritual while that of those seen in Matthew 27 a physical one? You then lose your point because Paul said this: 1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. Samuel’s resurrection here would be more likened in that case to the one Promised by Paul than to any physical resurrection - if it was physical. Samuels physical body was buried in Ramah but that is not where he is resurrected – what then happens to the idea that Joseph must be resurrected where ever his bones may be buried? Does it not then seem more reasonable that the bones of Joseph by an oath being carried into the promised land is a ‘seal’ of God’s promise to give them that promised land through covenant to their forefathers rather than having anything to do with any resurrections? Even IF it was about resurrection would it not merely be a sign and seal even as the bread and wine brought forth by Melchizedek? The bread is still bread – the wine is still wine – but it IS the body and blood of Jesus !!! IT is planted - It dies but IT is resurrected. The bread is far from the physical body of Christ – but IT is His Body. is it possible that the IT that is planted is also far from the IT that is resurrected? Samuel’s spiritual body could be physically recognized before he even spoke as being that of Samuel. Samuel died in a natural body in Ramah but was resurrected in a 'look alike' spiritual body at Endor Stan – allow me to caution you in focusing too heavily on a literal emphasis upon particular terms used within a verse of scripture ( as I have tried to show you before) This is not always completely reliable as I hope to show you with a little example. Do you believe that when the Holy Ghost came down upon Jesus that it was “spirit” or “physical? You see the bible says that Holy Ghost came down in a BODILY FORM upon Jesus when He was baptized: Luke 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form, as a dove, upon him, and a voice came out of heaven, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. I have been told that the word “bodily” must always mean something physical and that because I do not accept this I am damned. However – I do not know anyone who thinks the Holy Ghost came upon Jesus having a body covered in feathers. Carnal perceptions can lead to foolish questions: Matthew 22:28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. Perhaps we are all damned? :-) 1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. Thank God that some things are "easily understood" Brian

To: Stan who wrote (36388)	1/14/2004 10:28:21 AM
From: Robert E. Hall	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

Good morning Stan, Thanks for your reply Stan. As I have previously stated, The resurrection of Christ is an essential doctrine of faith which is necessary for the christian belief. I do not believe that mans " type " of resurrection is essential for salvation. He will be resurrected for sure, according to the word of God, his bodily resurrection will be according to scripture; <<< For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: >>> This physical body we now inhabit will return to dust; <<< Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. >>> <<< Eccl. 12:7, 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. >>> Let us consider 1 Cor.15: 35-38, <<< 35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. >>> The seed of grain is planted, but its seed body is NOT what comes up. When the seed germinates, the Spirit of Life within sprouts and takes on a new life form, producing after its kind, while the seed shell ( outer body ) decays and returns to dust. I trust this helps you see what I believe the scriptures teach. Brian has contributed much to this discussion in previous posts. Grace and peace to you, Robert