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Politics : Politics for Pros- moderated -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Lane3 who wrote (26720)1/28/2004 4:25:21 PM
From: Sully-  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 793885
 
I like how you spin "the self-interested actions of all
parties benefits all". You so benignly spin those
countries that opposed the war without ever mentioning
that France, Germany, Russia, China, etc., all had
participated in illegal arms sales to Iraq & had received
extremely lucrative contracts in return from Saddam.

You ignore that post 9/11, the US was no longer going to
play games with rouge regimes that thumbed its nose at UN
resolutions & harbored, trained & supported terrorists.

Meanwhile you spin US self interests in negative terms as
though we were the only party at fault....

"We can play big daddy and dictate to the world. Or we can respect partners, even if those partners are weaker than we, even though we know and they know that we could blow them away if we wanted to. I think that the latter is in our long term best interests, even if there's a certain amount of smoke blowing involved."

"Germany has every right and every obligation to try to change our minds, to try to stop us from doing what they perceive to be harmful to them."

"If Germany is in our way, we do what we need to get Germany out of the way. This whining about how they don't appreciate what we are doing for them as we march off to save the world is disgusting, IMO."


Yup, it's disgusting. And obvious.



To: Lane3 who wrote (26720)1/29/2004 1:25:31 AM
From: D. Long  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 793885
 
What you are arguing is that some of the parties subordinate their own determination of their own self interest to the US.

No. No I'm not.

If, in my scenario, we decide that it's in it's our best interests to invade Iraq and, say, Germany determines that not to be in Germany's best interests, Germany has every right and every obligation to try to change our minds, to try to stop us from doing what they perceive to be harmful to them. As you said, "the self-interested actions of all parties benefits all." I think we must respect them for that, then do whatever is best for us, whatever that may be. If Germany is in our way, we do what we need to get Germany out of the way.

Which is exactly what I'm advocating. What I am arguing against, as I thought I made clear, is the typical argument from the Left that any pursuit of our own interests when not rubber stamped by our erstwhile allies is somehow illegitimate.

Hence: Certainly correct. But that is a far cry from the typical reaction. The typical criticism isn't that Bush didn't try to get along with the neighbors, but that the neighbors don't agree with us, therefore we shouldn't do what they don't like. When there is a disagreement on minor matters, it is worthwhile to compromise one's interests for the sake of not rocking the boat. But you don't worry about disturbing the neighbors when you need to discharge your firearm to stop a home invasion.

As to: Derek, you can have this: "the self-interested actions of all parties benefits all." Or you can have "expecting others to appreciate that America acting in its own self-interest has the 'second-order effect' of furthering the greater good."

They are synonymous. There is no choosing between the two statements because they are the same worded differently.

Derek