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To: KyrosL who wrote (17365)2/15/2004 1:19:21 PM
From: Lizzie TudorRead Replies (1) | Respond to of 306849
 
I don't know what constitutes "health care" for the statistic but wouldn't the protectionism for drug companies and the fact that US consumers pay 3x what everybody else pays for drugs come into play?



To: KyrosL who wrote (17365)2/15/2004 1:47:23 PM
From: GraceZRead Replies (2) | Respond to of 306849
 
How does this statement of yours:

We spend 15% of GDP on health care. Almost all the other industrialized countries spend less than 10%. At the same time our life expectancy is on the average at least a year less than the other industrialized countries, and our infant mortality 50% more.

Prove this statement wrong?

We aren't losing jobs to these other countries which have more extensive health coverage picked up by the tax payers (it's amazing what you can afford when you don't pay for your own military defense) we're losing jobs to countries which have a far lower standard of health care and consequently lower over all labor cost than we do.

Are we losing jobs to the EU? The EU is losing jobs to the same people we are and it is to those countries which have little or no health care, far less than we do as well as far less than the EU. Maybe it's too much health care which is killing us, people depending on the advances of medicine to bail them out of a lifetime of poor choices.

Finally, in study after study, I read that our health care bureaucracy (primarily private health insurance bureaucracy) wastes at least twice as much as other countries.

If you are saying that insurance adds inefficiencies I agree with you, people would be far better off paying for their health care directly as they did in the old days. I don't agree with you if you think a government bureaucracy is a more efficient way to deliver health care. It always results in fewer choices and decline in overall care. Just ask the people wait listed in Canada for cardiac catheterization. In country after country with socialized medicine private care has sprung up to fill the gaps which get wider and wider in time.



To: KyrosL who wrote (17365)2/15/2004 10:20:27 PM
From: ConanRead Replies (1) | Respond to of 306849
 
Well, these 'other industrialized countries' don't really provide comparable populations. Most of them are European and very, very homogeneous. If you only looked all the white people in the USA and then compared their life expectancies to Europeans (as well as the costs of their care) I suspect the numbers would look very similar.

But here in the USA we are absorbing millions of immigrants a year from Mexico and other far flung, poorer nations. We also have 12% of our population that is of mainly African descent that has had to cope with the vestiges of slavery and discrimination. So I think it is quite an accomplishment that our average life expectancy is almost at European levels. And even our population of European descent consists of people whose forefathers were convicts, criminals, and unwanted 'religious extremists' that basically got kicked out of Europe or sent over here. We are a nation of people that no one wanted and we do quite well for ourselves.



To: KyrosL who wrote (17365)2/17/2004 9:33:43 PM
From: David JonesRead Replies (1) | Respond to of 306849
 
>We spend 15% of GDP on health care. Almost all the other industrialized countries spend less than 10%.<

Well they don't have the all knowing A.M.A looking out for them.



To: KyrosL who wrote (17365)2/18/2004 5:04:46 AM
From: Amy JRead Replies (1) | Respond to of 306849
 
Kyros, RE: "We spend 15% of GDP on health care. Almost all the other industrialized countries spend less than 10%."

Canadian heart patients need to come to the USA for certain advanced heart procedures, and this is because Canadian hospitals are not equipped with certain advanced tools. I know doctors in both countries (as well as other countries) and know this to be a fact.

The lab equipment for one particular advanced test procedure we do in the USA that is really helpful, costs more than $1M for just this. Even though it's a one-time purchase, Canada decides they cannot afford this, even though the results are extremely useful, saves significantly more lives. So, they go for average treatment, not advanced treatment. If you need certain advanced treatment you have to come to the USA, according to doctors here and there. If you need average treatment quicker than the 6 month+ waiting line like some heart patients found in the UK according to the Inquirer publication report, you have to come to the USA. Canada is more comfortable with watching a heart patient die while they wait for treatment - some there call it the patient's "fate." Some countries have waiting lines in overseas countries a year long. In India, sometimes your family has to aggressively push your case with respect to hospital care (even worse than here folks) - and there are so many people in India.

RE: "At the same time our life expectancy is on the average at least a year less than the other industrialized countries, and our infant mortality 50% more."

Advanced care is poor in Canada, while baseline care is better in Canada. Since there is only one single provider, patients don't bounce around when they change jobs. Meaning, the Canadian health care system makes darn sure you're baby has had all vaccines, etc. etc. for newborns. Also, Canada is better at preventive medicine than the USA. Does Stanford even require preventive care courses in its medical school yet? Last I looked (which was last year), they didn't. In Beijung, 20% of training is preventive, while 80% is Western training.

RE: " Finally, in study after study, I read that our health care bureaucracy (primarily private health insurance bureaucracy) wastes at least twice as much as other countries."

One advantage we have, when you compare our system to the UK, is in the UK a doctor can get away with murdering more than a dozen patients, because there is no administrative oversight. He is on his own, in his own clinic, and can do what he wants, without the oversight you find in the USA. Whereas in the USA, that administrative bureaucracy has better checks and balances in place and administrative reporting, to catch the major issues. Having said that, yes, multiple provider system is more expensive. On the other hand, a multiple provider system leads to better performance thru competition.

I'll take the USA system any day over foreign health systems.

I do agree there are definite cracks in our medicare/medicaid programs, which appear to be subpar on what they cover (compared to employer health insurance).

So, what do the folks do that aren't using the govt program, since individuals aren't big business for health insurance companies (health insur companies prefer large corporations and large revenues, not individuals.) In a research our startp did, 50% of all Silicon Valley startups have reported claim issues with their health insurance companies. Large companies are treated wildly better, because they have the leverage to threaten the health insurance company and the ability to negotiate a contract for better care - startups don't have this leverage, and individuals have even less leverage. Meanwhile, the govt is trying to convince startups to join these junky group health plans that some small businesses belong to -- no way - most are pretty bad.

I wish the govt would create a venue for patients to buy their own insurance in old age. Currently, insurance companies can thumb their noses at older patients, and then the govt has to pick up the tab (and tax payers) even if the patient prefers to pay for their own insurance. Isn't that strange? Here's another really strange thing. 50% of all long-term care is paid by the govt. This cost is extremely huge. Meanwhile, there are many people who would like to pay for their own LTC insurance, but routinely get denied - so guess who picks up that tab in most cases? Taxpayers. So, Congress allows our insurance companies to turn their noses at people who are able and willing to pay for their insurance - and this ends up costing our govt much more money, more deficit. It's truly irrational, but unfortunately not surprising. Congress just isn't good at budgeting.

Regards,
Amy J



To: KyrosL who wrote (17365)2/18/2004 6:16:40 AM
From: MicawberRespond to of 306849
 
We spend 15% of GDP on health care. Almost all the other industrialized countries spend less than 10%.

And this is how they keep their costs down:

Dutch parliament approves expulsion of thousands of asylum seekers

channelnewsasia.com