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Politics : Formerly About Advanced Micro Devices -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: zonder who wrote (187329)	4/29/2004 10:34:48 AM
From: i-node	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 1572686

Is that the "grateful Iraqis will welcome us with songs and flowers and love us forever" story again? The Left's need for instant gratification on this is telling--childlike behavior. These people have been held by a ruthless dictator for 30 years. It may take a couple years for it to sink in. That doesn't seem complicated to me. Then why, in your opinion, is the US not invading China to liberate Tibet? This is another childlike question. It is as though you're arguing about why Iraq got a different piece of chocolate than North Korea. These are complex matters without a single, one-size fits all solution. (1) US unconditionally supports Israel in its brutal occupation of Palestinians, their Muslim "brothers". Without US's support, Israel would not be able to make their brothers suffer. Thus, in their eyes, it is the fault of the US. As Tom Friedman has pointed out, this is nonsense. It is against human nature. The people of Iraq are one hell of a lot more concerned about themselves than they are the Palestinians. The Palestinian conflict is merely a proxy for what they've not been able to do -- which is speak out against their own governments. (2) While preaching democracy and freedom, US supports their brutal and undemocratic governments (ex: Saudi Arabia), hence keeping them oppressed and also being hypocritical. So, let's see. They hate if we free them, they hate us if we don't. Sounds to me like whether we free them is immaterial in their hatred. (3) US is embarked on a crusade against the Muslim world and has to be fought (as evidenced in their occupation of Iraq). The US is defending itself against terrorists. We tolerated it for a long time, now we're doing something about it. It happens that removing Saddam is the best way to do it. Really? How did Saddam's removal provide future security for American nation? By placing a democracy in the center of the Middle East we will, over the coming 30 years or so see democracy spread. Iran will be next, even the Saudis are beginning to understand they have to change. This will give these people an opportunity to prosper, rather than have their talent usurped by a dictator or monarch. Besides, "while Saddam had MINIMAL INVOLVEMENT with 9/11"? What minimal involvement is that? I would be interested to know because Bush himself said that there was no proof Saddam was involved with 9/11 AT ALL. Well, we know there were training camps in Iraq as well as some Al Qaeda seeking refuge there. As I said, minimal involvement. It is immaterial, however. That isn't the reason Saddam needed to go. Allow me to say, with great sadness, that this rather popular view that democracy can be installed by force in the Middle East, is a very naive one... The first chance they get, Iraqis will most probably elect a religious nut, who will then be the legitimate, democratically elected head of Iraq and then what is the US going to do? Invade Iraq again? Democracy comes from the inside, not from the outside and at the point of a gun, and even then, it has a painful road - just look at western history. You are entitled to your view, wrong though it may be. The people of Iraq, given a chance, will choose democracy I believe. They just need a push in the right direction. Time will tell. I wonder if you'll be around to say, "I was wrong". Personally, I don't have a "vision". I know a bit more about the place and the people living in it than most people around here, and for what it is worth, I try to explain why "they" seem to hate the US so, and why this forceful conversion of Iraq into a happy democracy populated with moderate Muslims who love the US is not likely to work out the way Bush et al says it will. I think you know so much about it that you're just like the Arabs are -- so brainwashed with Al Jazeera propaganda that you can't see the forest for the trees. If one stands back at looks at the problem dispassionately, we certainly seem to be on a reasonable course to bring about positive change. Sometimes the path there can get pretty ugly.

To: zonder who wrote (187329)	4/29/2004 10:50:42 AM
From: Road Walker	Respond to of 1572686

Good post... it's a shame it's wasted on closed mind. John

To: zonder who wrote (187329)	4/29/2004 11:56:49 AM
From: E. T.	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 1572686

"Imho, they hate the US because, from the viewpoint of Muslims around the world: (1) US unconditionally supports Israel in its brutal occupation of Palestinians, their Muslim "brothers". Without US's support, Israel would not be able to make their brothers suffer. Thus, in their eyes, it is the fault of the US." That's all well and good, but speaking to people who have been to the middle east it is Jews and not just Israel that arab's in the middle east hate. When mullahs, from minarets and public loudspeakers throughout the Arab world, cry for revenge it is not against Israel but for heathen jews. In some ways, imo, the arab populace in the middle east is being brainwashed. The constant message publicly, in schools and the media throughout arab world to hate jews and america is a ruse to redirect the peoples' focus away from the generally corrupt regimes most arab people live in. My friend that recently returned from a three-week vacation in Israel stayed with his sister for a while. She had been been on a military expedition into one of the PA refugee camps and she agrees that they are one of the most despicable places on earth. However, her comment was that tens of millions of dollars have been donated from around the world and, indeed, much from Israel, to help improve the situation for these people. But corruption is so rampant within the PA that no money ever makes it the camps. Why are the mullahs in the Arab world not crying out for honest leadership within the Palestinian community so their plight can be improved? For all its problems, the corruption of the United States pales in contrast with the situation within middle east arab countries. So when you talk about arabs hating Israel for the situation with the Palestinian, you are, imo, being naive. Arab leaders don't want an introspective populace, they're happier with one whose energies are directed toward hating others outside of their borders. In the thirties, many good people such as yourself, argued that Germans had valid reasons for hating the jews, for stealing jobs, raping children, drinking gentile blood, controlling interest rates to their advantage, corrupting the christian religion, etc. But really, jewish folk in Germany, Poland, France, Lithuania, wanted to live in peace, mind their own business, raise their families, be good neighbors, just as they do today in Israel. Arabs hate jews because they are taught to hate jews, not for anything they do. I mean if it was so bad in Israel, why is there not a mass exodus of the arab israelis?

To: zonder who wrote (187329)	4/29/2004 1:56:13 PM
From: i-node	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 1572686

These remarks are really worthy of further consideration, as the represent the misunderstanding MANY people have about this problem. (1) US unconditionally supports Israel in its brutal occupation of Palestinians, their Muslim "brothers". Without US's support, Israel would not be able to make their brothers suffer. Thus, in their eyes, it is the fault of the US. Does it really make sense, just from what you know about human nature, for a people to be more concerned about the cause of "their brothers" than they are about their own desperate circumstances? Of course not. *I LOVE* tejek. I would not want to see anything happen to him. But if it comes down to his freedom or mine, I'm getting mine first.** The cause of the Palestinians is totally secondary to the desire for Arabs to get some dignity on their own behalves. It is human nature. Or perhaps animal instinct. You can lay it all on the US and Israel from now on. That simply isn't the root of the problem. (2) While preaching democracy and freedom, US supports their brutal and undemocratic governments (ex: Saudi Arabia), hence keeping them oppressed and also being hypocritical. It is a fact that Arab states use their oil riches to suppress their people. In Arab states which have tended toward democracy, it has been because the oil revenue is not there or no longer sufficient to keep the people in check. This is what is happening in Iran, and is the reason we need not deal with Iran -- it will become a democracy under its own power. (3) US is embarked on a crusade against the Muslim world and has to be fought (as evidenced in their occupation of Iraq). Perhaps they believe this at this point. But once Iraq is freed, and it will be, and the occupation is over, this myth will be quickly dispelled. But not if we leave the job undone, in which it will be viewed as a defeat for the United States, which would be a disaster.

To: zonder who wrote (187329)	4/29/2004 6:24:45 PM
From: tejek	Respond to of 1572686

Personally, I don't have a "vision". I know a bit more about the place and the people living in it than most people around here, and for what it is worth, I try to explain why "they" seem to hate the US so, and why this forceful conversion of Iraq into a happy democracy populated with moderate Muslims who love the US is not likely to work out the way Bush et al says it will. Americans general ignorance of the outside world....particularly the ME.......allows our presidents to get away with the kind of BS that Bush is pulling. They know just how to play the American public....they pump them with fear and then add a big dose of patriotism.....viola!Another war is started. The worst part.......this time we are in way over our heads! Worse..........the WH does not have a clue as to what they're doing. ted