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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Maurice Winn who wrote (131175)	5/3/2004 3:39:07 PM
From: Ilaine	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

It was only after invading Poland, France and so on that they could get hold of Jews from those regions. The invasion of Poland took place in 1939. France was 1940. If you really want to read up on the history of the annihilation of Europe's Jews, as well as other "undesireables", people in mental institutions, homosexuals, Gypsies, Catholic priests, jazz musicians, Communists, labor union organizers, etc., I have some books I could recommend. In Poland, they simply shot Jews in the back of the head, the so-called "Stalin shot," one bullet to the brain, low enough to hit the brain stem. It was rather messy, blood and brain tissue got all over the executioners, and they didn't like that. They also did not like shooting pretty women, old people, and little children. So they started to drink too much, and stayed drunk all the time. And some of them refused to shoot anymore, but that was OK, some of them liked it. Objectively speaking, however, it was not efficient. Then, they started using vans, driving them to various places wehre they would round up Jews, etc., and would let the motor run and put the exhaust pipe into the van and wait until everybody was gassed. But the people screamed and fought. So they wanted better gas, and that meant more tightly sealed gas chambers. It was a process that took some time to perfect. Years, really. I have no idea whey you did not see women's cards in the Holocaust Museum, but expect it was because you took your card from the men's box. I take my cards from the women's box and have women every time. It's true that it's impossible to say how many died and when, because many of the records were destroyed, but there are plenty of records left. If you think the difference between four million and six million is significant, I suppose you'll never be satisfied.

To: Maurice Winn who wrote (131175)	5/3/2004 3:50:58 PM
From: Nadine Carroll	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

Was it 4 million or 6 million and how were they counted? Actually, it was 11 million if you count everybody, Jews and non-Jews. And how were they counted? by the Germans, very exactly. The German railroads issued 11 million one-way tickets. May I recommend Lucy Dawidowicz' The War Against the Jews? I don't think there were millions of Jewish deaths by 1941. They really only got revved up by 1943 The Final outlines of the "Final Solution" date from 1941, but they were building ghettoes and camps long before that, and you seem to have forgotten about the Einsatzgruppen, the SS who were running around Poland and Russia shooting Jews and burying them in pits, that were at work from 1939 on. I'm not sure of the absolute totals by 1941 (I don't know if anyone is), but I'm sure it was over a million by then, esp. if you count starvation in the ghettoes as a cause. This was about the time the Germans decided that the Einsatzgruppen weren't going to do the trick, they needed to scale up in a scientific manner.