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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (132774)	5/12/2004 8:59:29 PM
From: Dr. Id	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

It would appear that many people, if this thread is any indication, have no concept as to how to "drain the swamp" of those elements that have brought us the theo-ideology of Islamic militancy, or that there are going to be many entities who have no interest in permitting a democratic state be fostered in Iraq. And if that turns out to be true, then we're going to pay for that timidity and lack of resolve somewhere down the road in next 10 years. And we're going to pay in a very big manner.. Hawk Hawk, What kind of democratic state are we installing when we don't allow the people of Iraq to choose their own leaders or form of government that they want? We will install OUR form of democracy (like we did in Guatemala, which has been unstable ever since) which won't be a democracy at all. We are already controlling their media (which isn't a very "democratic" thing to do). As for the "timidity" of avoiding violence? Do you think that Gandhi and Martin Luther King were "timid"? There are ways to deal with problems and conflict which don't involve violence and invasion. And, those of us who oppose the war aren't necessarily against violence at any time. I myself see it as a last resort. I know that you will argue that that was the case with Iraq, but that just isn't true. And at some level, you know it.

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (132774)	5/12/2004 9:33:19 PM
From: Win Smith	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

t would appear that many people, if this thread is any indication, have no concept as to how to "drain the swamp" of those elements that have brought us the theo-ideology of Islamic militancy, or that there are going to be many entities who have no interest in permitting a democratic state be fostered in That "drain the swamp" phrase has been a constant litany here for as long as I can remember, though it mostly left with LindyBill. Originally, invading Iraq was supposed to be the seminal "swamp draining" event. That particular concept seems to have not quite worked out the way it was supposed to. So, what's the latest in "swamp draining" conceptuality? Are the brilliant neocons going to go back to Bernard Lewis and get more lessons on how to deal with "Arab minds" by whacking them around more? Or will they go to the Israelis instead, with their most excellent experiences in the military occupation area? Are the neocons going to go back to their old favorite Chalabi as American-installed strongman with no visible popular support? Do we need to round up thousands more Iraqis to go with the thousands already under indefinite detention, Gitmo-style, but this time around make sure no news gets out about how they're being whacked around? Must be a plan in there somewhere, but as usual, nobody at the top is saying much, except that W is on a Mission from God.

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (132774)	5/13/2004 1:53:09 PM
From: cnyndwllr	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

I am really wondering whether the American people will ever have the intestinal fortitude to ever engage in a conflict again?? Do you mean a Vietnam or Iraqi type of justified war, or do you mean a real war against a real foe that really threatens America? Just cause we're smart, don't mean we're chicken. I wonder if you truly understand everyday Americans.

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (132774)	5/13/2004 8:34:48 PM
From: Zeuspaul	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

I am really wondering whether the American people will ever have the intestinal fortitude to ever engage in a conflict again?? I wouldn't worry about that. Given a clear and present danger America will respond with vigor. Too much emphasis is placed on precedent. Leadership failures in Vietnam didn't stop Bush I from turning the page on history...clear military objectives can be met and decisively so. The error of Bush II was to believe he could build on the successful precedent of Bush I...calling it unfinished business. America isn't weaker due to the leadership failure...however our enemies are stronger as we have revealed some of our weaknesses. The lesson to America from Iraq II is the same as the lesson from Vietnam. Military objectives have to be well defined. Don't worry about the military or the American people...worry about the leadership. Support our Troupes. The blame for the prison scandal belongs at the top...not with the troupes. Zeuspaul