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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: unclewest who wrote (135027)5/31/2004 5:44:09 AM
From: Maurice Winn  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
Gee Uncle, you military guys are convincing today and with some heart in your comments. I suppose it's the aftermath of Memorial Day and reflection on the serious side of life.

Thanks for your posts and your service in defence of civilization, freedom and individuals.

On Boykin, I've poked fun at him for his comment about whose supernatural spook is bigger and tougher.

We all say silly things from time to time and if I had a microphone shoved in my mouth and comment was asked for, I'm sure I'd embarrass myself several times a day with inane, stupid or plain wrong comments and ideas. I suppose Boykin's silly comment was one of those instances. Maybe.

People poke fun at President Bush too, but I've listened to him speaking off the cuff from time to time and he seems fine to me. Not as good as Clinton but not bad. Even the messed up things that have been reported usually make sense if I look for his meaning, rather than parsing the words for grammar, structure and logic.

But I'm not a General, nor a President, so they have to have high standards and face the criticisms that I don't have to. When they expose Waco ideas, such as religious nutiness, it's scary to those of us who don't believe in crusades, Armageddon, Jihad and the rapture.

Mq



To: unclewest who wrote (135027)6/3/2004 1:33:57 AM
From: Jacob Snyder  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Thank you for your thoughtful and polite response.

I re-wrote my response several times, trying to say what I mean.

<Let me first assure you that I hate war.>

I have never been a soldier. But my father and one of my brothers, and several in-laws, are current or former officers. Everyone, without exception, says they hate war. Yet 100 million people died in the 20th Century, in wars. If we truly all hate it, why do we do it constantly? The answer is, we hate it merely in the abstract. "I hate war..." is an empty slogan, unless it is followed by, "...so, I won't do war."

<he (Boykin) is a man of character and integrity. Boykin speaks from the heart. He means what he says, says what he means and is willing to die for his beliefs and convictions.>

I believe you; he is all those things. Further: I think one reason militarists run America, and pacifists don't, is because the militarists have so many disciplined, courageous, self-sacrificing people like him. Pacifists and leftists tend to be undisciplined, often have confused morals, tend to make excuses for bad behavior (a tendency conservatives are now copying), and usually aren't willing to die for their beliefs.

But, in addition to all those admirable qualities, Boykin is also an excellent recruiting tool for Al Queda. They can point to him, and say, "Look, the Americans really are Crusaders. They really are trying to destroy our religion and our culture, at gunpoint."

<"Kill all Jews, kill all Christians and kill all Americans">

That's 2,000,000,000 people. Do you really think Militant Islam means to make war on us till they have killed 2 billion people? Isn't it more likely, that support for Al Queda will dissipate, once American troops are out of all Muslim nations? It is our boot on their necks, that makes them hate us. It is the way we define their oil as our vital national interests.

<If the goal of war is to find peace>

Leaving aside the ends-and-means problem, let's just look at the actual reality on the ground. Does it look to you, like our wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, are leading towards peace?

Americans are fickle; they like quick fixes. They will put vast effort towards a goal, but they need to see results. The slow slog, the patient building up towards longterm goals, it just isn't in our national character. Polls show a steady fall in support for the war, ever since Saddam's statue was pulled down. As a nation, we don't do things because they are the right thing to do; we do things, because they work. Iraq isn't working.

And while our national resolve for a military solution fades, the Islamic World is getting more and more pissed at us. Polls there, show a deepening and broadening of hatred towards America. We aren't convincing anyone. Bin Laden is held in much higher esteem than Bush, even in places that are our longterm allies, like Turkey and Egypt.

2 1/2 years after 9/11, and I don't see peace, or even a reasonable hope of future peace, in Afghanistan or Iraq or Palestine.

<If you are inclined to believe that, in fact, there is evil on earth and it is worth fighting against it, you then must choose sides.>

Oh, yes, there is vast evil on earth. The Devil walks the earth today, triumphant, victorious. The Devil whispers in the ear of Bin Laden, saying "I am the God of Mohammed. Kill for me." Then he goes and whispers in the ear of President Bush, saying, "I am the God of Jesus. Kill for me." And then he sits back and laughs, having fooled everyone into doing his bidding. And the killing goes on and on and on.

I've chosen sides. I stand with anyone who prays to a God of Peace, and who follows the 6th Commandment (lip service doesn't count). In the 19th Century, the world abolished slavery. In the 21st Century, we will abolish war. Or we will destroy ourselves.