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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: epicure who wrote (135302)	6/2/2004 1:58:47 AM
From: Hawkmoon	Respond to of 281500

I don't get this intense urge you exhibit to personalize this- it's ludicrous, especially when you know nothing about my life. I'm still wondering about the story you told of your father having been a Marine Corps "gunner" and his feeling regret for having participated in the bombing of Japan.. What kind of aircraft did he serve on exactly? Btw, I do agree with your point about wanting others to learn from the circumstances of my death. Because it would be my greatest desire that others live as a result of any lessons learned from my death. However, I also don't want anyone trying to turn my death into some kind of political statement that does not reflect the views I held during my life. That is the ultimate act of dishonor, IMO. Hawk

To: epicure who wrote (135302)	6/2/2004 2:53:47 AM
From: cosmicforce	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

I just received an Internet story celebrating the excesses of Gen. Pershing in Philippines. This info-treat named many of his accomplishments, concluding with the shooting of 49 of 50 "terrorists" (freedom fighters?) who didn't agree with the unlawful occupation of the Philippine Islands. Apparent Pershing shot the terrorists with pig-blood soaked bullets and pushed the corpses into a big hole, filled with pig feces and entrails. The last remaining terrorist was set free to spread the word. The forwarded item claimed that for 42 years there was no further Muslim terror attacks. Presumably this rather dubious claim meant "against the U.S." because as any person with half-a-wit knows the British were, at nearly the very moment, trying like hell to hold onto Iraq - and finally left due to their unwillingness to kill massive numbers of non-combatants in order to fight terrorist attacks. The upshot of the snippet was how great Pershing was, that we needed someone like him now, and that maybe we need to let "this segment of history repeat itself, maybe in Iraq". To rebut this, I merely reference a more balanced view of actual events. This is one of several that pretty much tell the same story, but with fewer facts missing. wordiq.com When people found out about the excesses (1 MILLION Filipinos taking the toll for our liberating acts) their support waned for this war of one-sided aggression. Andrew Carnegie was a strong critic of the U.S. presence and many, including Mark Twain, felt that America had forsaken its origin by becoming a holder of colonies. It was ironic, to say the least. Many people were under the mistaken belief that most Filipinos wanted to join the United States (and probably encouraged to think that by those with the agenda), just like many people think that Iraq has some connection to the 9/11 attack on America (and are allowed to continue to think that because it fits with Neocon agenda). Both beliefs are factually wrong. The unlawful taking of the Philippine Islands was a follow-on of another unlawful act - the declaration of war against Spain. We wouldn't accept their acquiesence any more than we answered Saddam's requests at the last moment. Before the Philippines became part of the U.S., they belonged to Spain (which was also having trouble holding it as a colonial possession). The whole basis of the Spanish American War (by which we came into possession of several colonies, including PI ) has been questioned with many naval experts attributing the destruction of the U.S.S. Maine, not to Hearst's terrorist agent provocateurs, but to a design defect which allowed the powder magazine to get too hot due to its proximity to the boiler. A sister ship of the Maine also exploded from a powder magazine explosion. Factually incorrect information for political impact has been part of the American foreign policy landscape since we started becoming an Imperialist power. But even before that we were a nation that harbored terrorists like Walker even as he undermined the legitimate government in Nicaragua. It should not come as a surprise that people today will just as vehemently defend wrong actions, based upon factually incorrect assertions, and call those who have the facts on their side "un-American" or otherwise denigrate their contribution to the country. In war, the first casualty is the truth. Anyone who wishes to look up my facts will find that they are true. But I doubt mere facts will change anyone's mind. Good luck on your mission.

To: epicure who wrote (135302)	6/2/2004 2:57:17 AM
From: unclewest	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

I don't know you any better than you know me. And I think it's rude to get personal, when the issue on the table isn't personal. X, Whoops did we get uncomfortable? We have reached an understanding...you may not yet appreciate. Freedom is personal...of course it is personal, otherwise none or us would be discussing this. So is life and death in war. Don't you see some discrepency in your open willingness to join CB in evaluating the value of Tillman's life and death in public and your desire to keep own life and death personal. If you are American, the issue of fighting for freedom is certainly personal. To deny that is to deny all of your forefathers and your USMC father who you recently mentioned. I suggested the question, would you rather be known for your death or your life? If you do not fully comprehend that question...it is ok. For a full and complete explanation ask your USMC dad. uw