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To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (67395)9/6/2004 8:03:16 AM
From: unclewest  Respond to of 793903
 
Nice post!

Thoughtful too!



To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (67395)9/6/2004 9:15:12 AM
From: Suma  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 793903
 
Nadine,sent this to you as I believe that you are the most knowledgeable one on the boards when it comes to the content written here...and can offer insight.. suma

One by One, Iraqi Cities Become No-Go Zones
By Dexter Filkins
The New York Times

Sunday 05 September 2004

BAGHDAD, Iraq - At a recent meeting with a group of tribal sheiks, an American general spoke with evident frustration about the latest Iraqi city to fall into the hands of insurgents.

"Not one dime of American taxpayers' money will come into your city until you help us drive out the terrorists," Maj. Gen. John R. S. Batiste said in his base in Tikrit, tapping the table to make sure he was understood.

The sheiks nodded, smiled and withdrew, back to the city that neither they, nor the American military, any longer control.

The city under discussion was Samarra, a small metropolis north of Baghdad known for a dazzling ninth-century minaret that winds 164 feet into the air. In the heart of the area called the Sunni Triangle, Samarra is the most recent place where the American military has decided that pulling out and standing back may be the better part of valor, even if insurgents take over.

In Iraq, the list of places from which American soldiers have either withdrawn or decided to visit only rarely is growing: Falluja, where a Taliban-like regime has imposed a rigid theocracy; Ramadi, where the Sunni insurgents appear to have the run of the city; and the holy Shiite cities of Karbala and Najaf to the south, where the Americans agreed last month to keep their distance from the sacred shrines of Ali and Hussein.

The calls are rising for the Americans to pull out of even more areas, notably Sadr City, the sprawling neighborhood in eastern Baghdad that is the main base for the rebel cleric Moktada al-Sadr. There, leaders of his Mahdi Army are demanding that American soldiers, except those sent in to do reconstruction work, get out.

Negotiations with rebel leaders foundered last week on precisely the issue of the freedom of American soldiers to enter the area; the Iraqi government, possibly with American backing, refused to accept the militia's demand. Even so, the point seemed clear enough: where Iraqis once tolerated American soldiers as a source of stability in their neighborhoods, they increasingly see them as a cause of the violence. Take out the Americans, the Iraqis say, and you take out the problem. Leave us alone, and we will sort our own problems.

"All we want is for the Americans to stay out," said Yusef al-Nasiri, a top aide to Mr. Sadr. "When the Americans come into the city, they insult our people. That's when the people get nervous. It makes them uncomfortable."

That certain Iraqis believe their cities and neighborhoods would be better off without American soldiers is neither new nor surprising; that is what the guerrillas' insurgency, now in its 17th month, is all about. What is new, however, is that the Americans, in certain cases, appear to agree or have decided that the cost to prove otherwise would be too high.

The pullback began in the west, in Falluja, which the Marines surrounded and attacked in April, after the killing and mutilation of four American contract employees. The Marines moved to within sight of the city center, but called off their attack after a public outcry spurred by reports that as many as 600 Iraqis had been killed.

Since then, American plans to have a group of former Baathist officers take control have collapsed, and the city is now run by a group of Islamic fundamentalists called the "Islamic council of holy warriors." The Americans do not go inside.

In recent months, much of the rest of the surrounding area, Anbar Province, has slipped away from American control. Insurgents roam freely in the provincial capital, Ramadi, and the Americans appear to have abandoned a permanent presence inside the city.

Even in the once-friendly Shiite areas, the Americans are giving way to local demands that they stay away. When American fighters expelled the Mahdi Army from the shrines in Karbala and Najaf, a condition for each of the peace agreements was that the Americans pull back.

There is a huge difference, of course, between the pullbacks in Falluja and Samarra and the ones in the Shiite cities. In Karbala and Najaf, the Americans cleared the way for Iraqi police officers. The struggle over Sadr City is over just that - who would take control, the Iraqi police or the Mahdi Army. The Americans, who have watched repeatedly as the Iraqi police have retreated before Mr. Sadr's militia and as the Mahdi Army has broken its promises, clearly fear the worst.

In places like Falluja, Samarra and Ramadi, on the other hand, the Americans and the Iraqi government appear to have forfeited their influence. Residents of all three places say insurgents are in charge.

Falluja, for instance, has become a haven for insurgents and terrorists, including, the Americans believe, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the Jordanian thought to be responsible for a number of car bombings that have killed hundreds of civilians. In Falluja, the insurgents are free to carry out their own brand of justice, like the public lashings of people suspected of theft and rape, and the videotaped beheading last month of Suleiman Mar'awi, one of the city's National Guard commanders.

Most significant of all, the withdrawal from these cities calls into question the practicality of nationwide elections scheduled to take place before the end of January. At the moment, the Americans appear to be prepared to hold elections without cities like Falluja and Ramadi. But excluding the largely Sunni Arab areas from the elections would raise serious doubts about their legitimacy. Already, one of the country's leading Sunni groups, the Sunni Clerics Association, boycotted the selection of the National Council, which serves as a de facto Parliament here.

"We think the elections will be fake," said Abdul Salam al-Qubesi, a leading Sunni cleric and a member of the association.

There are indications that American commanders would like to reassert their control over some of these no-go zones before the January elections; in purely military terms, they have little doubt that they could. In Falluja, a Marine commander said that at the time he ordered his men to halt their offensive in April, they were just two or three days from capturing the middle of the city.

But the question now, as it was then, is at what cost, not just in American lives, but in American credibility, if Iraqi casualties begin to mount. "We could go into Samarra tomorrow if we wanted to," said Maj. Neal O'Brien, a spokesman for the First Infantry Division. "But we want to arrive at an Iraqi solution."

The problem facing the American leadership here is whether, in places like Falluja and Samarra, there are Iraqi solutions they cannot accept.

-------

John F. Burns contributed reporting for this art



To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (67395)9/6/2004 11:53:56 AM
From: carranza2  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 793903
 
A very large contingent of Democrats does not believe that radical Islam even exists in any shape that would qualify them as an "enemy". If it doesn't have divisions and tanks, it can't be a threat, that's the way they look at it. Besides, it's always wrong for America to use its military power, since the powerful are always wrong and weak are always right. They cannot believe in the existence of Bush's reasons for the war. I don't mean they can't agree with Bush's reasons, they simply cannot believe that Bush means what he says. It's all absurd lies from beginning to end in their view, so Bush must have ulterior motives. Must have, there's no other explanation. This makes them ripe pickings for a conspiracy-peddlar like Moore.

I can't go along with the notion that a large contingent of Dems doesn't believe in the existence of radical Islam ("RI"). The evidence is overwhelming. No halfway operating intellect can deny the reality. Any doubts can be answered with a simple explanation--9/11/01.

The Dems do differ, however, on what to do about it. My personal experience in discussing the issue with Dem friends who are not round the bend is that the preferred mode is engagement and compromise, using the vast numbers of reasonable Muslims as a sort of lever to reach the militants.

My retort generally is that unlike terror groups of the past, RI has global goals which cannot succeed simply because success means the overthrow the prevailing mode of global culture. The breadth of these goals make using moderate Muslims to defuse RI simply impossible.

Ironically, RI's goal is so huge and so all-encompassing that it cannot succeed if only because of the size of its ambitions. This is an interesting paradox and the key to defusing and defeating it.

In order to minimize RI's terrorism, and perhaps defeat it, our strategy needs to be to make sure that RI knows in its bones that it cannot accomplish its global goals. To do so, we must be resolute, fight RI wherever we can find it.

The Dems know that RI exists, naturally. However, I think that what they perhaps fail to see are the magnitude of its goals. Dems also fail to acknowledge that the key to stopping RI's terror is to fight RI resolutely, to the point that it knows that its global ambitions are a best-abandoned pipe dream.

In this sense, and in this sense only, 9/11 was a wake up call for which we can be grateful. The Dems would like to go back to the old somnolence, the GOP I think is much more aware of the dangers. It is the reason Bush should win this election.

This to me is the unarticulated distinction between Dems and the GOP. Unless Kerry addresses it in a manner which effectively distinguishes his policies from Bush's, he's lost.

There is, however, nothing to prevent Kerry from agreeing with Bush's views on terrorism and the need to fight it relentlessly. If he did so and if he apologized to the Swifites, we could see a different campaign. So far, however, I have seen no signs that Kerry is astute enough to see the way to victory. Perhaps he knows his record does not allow for another volte face, though it might make him a contender.



To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (67395)9/11/2004 4:07:52 AM
From: Dayuhan  Read Replies (4) | Respond to of 793903
 

a quite large contingent of normally sane Democrats have gone round the bend with regard to anything having to do with the Bush administration

Just as so many Republicans did with Clinton. A contagious phenomenon, it seems, and not a terribly productive one.

When faced with this grab-bag of perfectly incoherent ideas it becomes very difficult to have any kind of rational conversation.

I have that problem with both right and left, and I’ve largely given up on even attempting rational conversation in the flesh. It’s easier to feign disinterest. I hate running into people who say they’ve read my work; it always seems a prelude to being called either a right-wing apologist for the corporate crooks or a left wing appeaser of evil. The only challenging part is trying to anticipate which accusation it’s going to be.

The Right and the Left are living in completely different world-views these days.

That’s nothing terribly unusual. The right and the left have always lived in fantasy worlds of their own construction, which is why we’ve generally preferred leaders from a range spanning a no more than a few compass points from the center. Is there still a center? Where is it hiding?

The bloggers feel that since the newspapers have abdicated the provision of news, bloggers might as well fill the gap.

The problem is that bloggers can’t fill the gap. They have no direct sources of news; they are still reliant on somebody else’s reportage. They can criticize, but they can't originate news. Bloggers add another source of marginally informed commentary, usually poorly thought out - a necessary result of the stream-of-consciousness blog format. You don’t generally find finished, coherent thought in that sort of stream, the format simply isn’t conducive to it.

The bloggers link to each other, connect postings, do research, and fact-check each other, which provides a continuous voting mechanism on the worth of any one post and its commentaries, which amounts to a de facto and extemely rapid collective grading and correction mechanism.

I suppose that if you read them all you could achieve some sort of balance, but that would be a full time job and you’d have to wade through one hell of a lot of useless ranting. What I see – and I’ve looked – is the evolution of what could be called blog circles – groups of bloggers with similar perspectives who link to each other’s sites and to news stories selected to support the prevailing bias, reinforcing their own prejudices and allowing readers to maintain the illusion of multiple sources without leaving their ideological comfort zone.

I have found no reason to change my belief that most blog readers are looking for affirmation, not information.