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To: TobagoJack who wrote (57715)	12/29/2004 12:08:58 AM
From: twmoore	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 74559

The people that I talked to while I was in China recently,all revered Mao and also had great things to say about a Canadian named Norman Bethune.His work as chief medical officer in Mao's Red Army made him a hero in Revolutionary China.

To: TobagoJack who wrote (57715)	12/29/2004 3:41:02 AM
From: Seeker of Truth	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 74559

Jay, I don't agree that it is senseless to say that Napoleon was a scoundrel. Before him, slavery of the blacks in French West Indies was ended by revolutionary French regimes. Napoleon restored to the slave owners their "property". Napoleon caused the deaths of several hundred thousand French soldiers and many non-French soldiers on the other side in his ultimately defeated campaigns to rule Europe. All for his glory. If that's not a scoundrel, then there are no scoundrels. As for Mao, I do feel confident that he and his party was a better choice for the Chinese people than the Kuomintang gang. But history will always raise an eyebrow at Mao Tse Tung's predilection for surrounding himself with people later denounced as criminals, e.g. Liu Shao-Chi, Lin Biao, Peng De Huai, Gao Gang and many others. I think he was simply corrupted by absolute power. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." (Quotation from Acton.) History isn't bunk. It has lessons. We can't just shrug and say what is is. Whatever is wrong about today's China is his dictatorial heritage. There is plenty right about today's China and it is mostly because of the industriousness and zeal for learning of the Chinese people. Take a look at overseas Chinese. They are not led by any party but on the average they do extremely well not only economically for their families but also they are good citizens, generous contributors to charity etc.So it doesn't require the Communist Party, just being Chinese does it. There's actually an investment angle to my rant. I remember suggesting to you a few years back that UCBH and CATY were excellent investments. After the extent of the stupidity and cruelty of Bush's Republicans and their plans to invade Iraq became clear to me, I pulled out of these two but, ignoring me and TEOTWAWKI they have continued to do well.

To: TobagoJack who wrote (57715)	12/29/2004 4:31:31 AM
From: Maurice Winn	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 74559

Jay, so nothing matters? Nihilism RULZ OK!? Just is? The future is not a function of our minds? Let's all just give up now. Mao, Stalin and Adolf did what they did and achieved much for the many. Revolution = blood. End of story, and plenty of it. No thanks. "Doing much" isn't necessarily a good thing. Mostly I wish politicians and megalomaniacs in general would do nothing. Mao was a criminal. He left a legacy where a 14 year old boy in Beijing in 2004 could be working for almost no money from 6.30 am to about midnight with just an hour or so off, and wall to wall hutongs for hordes to live in. After 50 years of glorious revolution and Maoistic mantras, one would think they'd be doing at least as well as, say Taiwan, which got going at a similar time. Or maybe South Korea. Or even Japan, which was well pummelled and in recovery mode in 1948. He used power for the glory of the state [meaning him] at the cost of the individual. Saddam did much the same. Megalomaniacs do that. A decent communist would insist on a common grave on the outskirts of Beijing, not an Emperor's giant shrine blocking up the centre. The point of ranting about Mao [and Adolf and Stalin and Saddam] is to identify the causes of great human suffering, with the hope of avoiding that in future. It is not: < Meaningless. Lacks perspective. Devoid of objectivity. Absent the big picture. Shows political immaturity. Displays lack of geopolitical sophistication. Too much provincialism. Unbecoming of folks who are not of the peasantry. And gives away the inability for independent thinking.> On the contrary, the nihilistic, fatalistic, all-are-the-same philsophy shows lack of perspective, no objectivity, no big picture, political immaturity, provincialism, noblesse oblige and helpless thinking. <What would you have preferred? That the Chinese, your kin, remain weak and the dogs of Asia, ruled from Tokyo? This is why race, color, nationality matter on such issues, but only to the thinking, not for the brainwashed or the mentally feeble.> After being nuked and unconditionally surrendered, Japan wasn't going to rule China. But as it happens, China might well have been better ruled by post-war Japan, under hegemonist USA, which has done very well and is a nice place. Yiwu wouldn't have needed to go to the USA to get some money. Ramsey Su might have found China more appealing than San Diego [though San Diego is pretty good]. "Chinese your kin" - that's a narrow view of kin Jay. Showing a lack of perspective, objectivity, big picture, political maturity, geopolitical sophistication, genetic knowledge and blah blah blah. The olde style tribal territorial genocidal wars are absurd. To think along those lines in the 21st century shows lack of perspective, ... etc... Actually, I'd admit preference for the Japanese to the CCP. My parents and especially my mother were proponents of Mao and all that socialism stuff. They thought things were going great thanks to the revolution. I disagree [they died in the 1980s so I don't get to debate with them on it] though I too thought it was a good thing on the basis of the greatest good for the greatest number and thinking governments were good and socialism not a bad idea in my early days, before I gained a lot of direct experience of governments versus private enterprise. I plead ignorant youth. Mqurice

To: TobagoJack who wrote (57715)	12/30/2004 11:45:53 AM
From: Gary H	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 74559

You can't step into the same river twice.

To: TobagoJack who wrote (57715)	1/5/2005 1:50:49 PM
From: brian h	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 74559

"""""""Saying Mao was a criminal means as much as ranting Napoleon was a scoundrel. Meaningless. Lacks perspective. Devoid of objectivity. Absent the big picture. Shows political immaturity. Displays lack of geopolitical sophistication. Too much provincialism. Unbecoming of folks who are not of the peasantry. And gives away the inability for independent thinking.""""""""""" OK. "Revolution=blood". How about after he gained his control in China after 1949. He achieved for the many and continued to "achieved much for the many" by killing more intellectuals (culture revolution) and (through wrong policies) killing innocent peasants/intellectuals (great leap forward programs)? He was a criminal/dictator who was worse than Chiang by miles no matter how you want to slice it. """What would you have preferred? That the Chinese, your kin, remain weak and the dogs of Asia, ruled from Tokyo? This is why race, color, nationality matter on such issues, but only to the thinking, not for the brainwashed or the mentally feeble."""" Not sure what you mean. Kicked Japanese buds were not done by Mao and his troops only. It was done by many other Chinese (mostly Nationalist troops) and through other countries help. Chinese (Han) were ruled by Mongos (80 years) and Manchurians (200 plus years) before. They did not complain until people suffered enough to have a new revolution. People know if they live a good life or not. Race, color, and nationality does not matter at all. CCP are to serve not control Chinese and their minds. CCP are still controlling Chinese minds. "No big deal" and "maintaining stability" are preluded for a deeper control and possible killing. ""'You would never admit preference for the Japanese (or would you?)""" I live in modern times. I am sure I do not want to be a Japanese myself. My mom generation (those who lived under Japanese ruled Taiwan) did not feel any threat from then ruling Japanese. However they do feel threaten and hostility from YiWu and current CCP. What do you suggest? Say yes to CCP because they are Chinese? Among many choices, CCP change (respond to Taiwanese-Chinese need) or Japan/US may be a good choice if they say yeah. :-) """What then is your solution had you had a choice to play god, and how realistic is that solution?""" Continue to respond to people (no matter race, color, and nationality) need. "There was no other way" is just another CCP (rulers) lie to its own people who place trusts to CCP (rulers) in the first place. CCP are not emperors. They are people republic servants. Warm sunshine can make people take off their coats. Chilly winds can make people grab thier coats tighter. ""how realistic is that solution"" People like YiWu/CCP stop and watch themselves in the mirror more often will help. Do they theat their own kins like kins when they attacked Japanese Naking massacres or Us imperialisms. I have been to many countries. I (most Taiwanese/Chinese) feel more threats from CCP and YiWu than average criminals on US streets. Does that ring a bell? BH