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To: Lane3 who wrote (107875)	4/5/2005 12:39:00 PM
From: LindyBill	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 793931

Surely you're not claiming that those few people toting guns have brought down the murder rate in Alexandria. I am claiming that when people are allowed to carry, and that is known to criminals, criminals will go elsewhere to engage in their activity. The number that actually carry does not really affect the drop in crime that much. The perception is what is important. If you are a criminal, you are less likely to try to rob a store in a city that allows the storeowners to carry. It is difficult to get good stats because of the ethnic variation. You probably read the stats I just posted to Mary. I don't know of any cities with high urban black populations that have a good open "carry" law. When one of them finally allows an open "carry" law, we can get a good comparison.

To: Lane3 who wrote (107875)	4/5/2005 2:22:39 PM
From: Ilaine	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 793931

Concealed carry probably shouldn't affect any crime rates but street holdups and other street crime. Because Virginia doesn't have gun license laws, you are allowed to have as many guns as you want in your house. I don't have a concealed carry permit, but own a couple of handguns. When I have travelled and felt the need for a gun, I just carry it in plain view in my hand and leave it in plain view on the front seat. Perfectly legal in VA. Similarly, you can have a gun hidden in your place of business, and many do.

To: Lane3 who wrote (107875)	4/5/2005 4:43:43 PM
From: TimF	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 793931

Surely you're not claiming that those few people toting guns have brought down the murder rate in Alexandria. I don't believe its an unreasonable contention, although I don't think it would be enough to account for all of the difference. People in VA in general (and presumably Alexandria as well) are more likely to have guns than people in DC. Its not to hard for a criminal in Alexandria to enter DC to commit their crimes with less danger than they would have in Alexandria. There are other differences in Alexandria and DC. Perhaps the Alexandria cops are better or the court system is more likely to convict, or maybe its some other difference. It would be silly to suggest that the data on gun crimes or murders if DC and Alexandria, combined with an understanding of the legal differences that effect carrying guns, by itself amounts to scientific evidence for a huge benefit from concealed carry laws, but there is a some evidence that concealed carry laws, or liberal gun laws in general, do reduce crime. The examples of Alexandria and DC do at least serve to show how concealed carry laws don't cause some movie version of the old "wild west" to become reality. Tim