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To: Lane3 who wrote (121492)6/22/2005 1:39:04 PM
From: MrLucky  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 793718
 
Bush: Gitmo Prisoners Protected by Geneva Conventions
Thursday, June 09, 2005
By Sharon Kehnemui Liss

WASHINGTON — Linking the military prison in Guantanamo Bay (search) to the gulags in the former Soviet Union (search) is "absurd," especially when the United States is taking special care to protect the civil liberties of prisoners, President Bush said Wednesday.

"This is absurd to equate Gitmo, or Guantanamo, with the Soviet gulags. It's just not even close," Bush told FOX News' Neil Cavuto in an exclusive interview.

"Prisoners are being treated in accordance with the Geneva Convention (search)," the president said, adding that the prisoners are stateless fighters who are not explicitly governed by the conventions. "We treat the prisoners in accordance with international standards, and that's what the American people expect."

Watch FOX News Channel for Neil Cavuto's interview with President Bush at 4 p.m. EDT.




To: Lane3 who wrote (121492)6/22/2005 1:51:34 PM
From: Nadine Carroll  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 793718
 
We either have to get rid of it or we have to defend what it is

We have defended what it is. But it's hard to defend it when the opponents keep making up new Geneva Convention standards that aren't in the treaty and then accuse us of violating them; or jump straight to the most inflammatory rhetoric they can lay their hands on. What can we do but repeat that they are being treated humanely & according to their Geneva convention rights - which actually, are none, since they are unlawful combatants - as far as I can tell only the treaty against torture applies to them.



To: Lane3 who wrote (121492)6/22/2005 2:00:27 PM
From: Ilaine  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 793718
 
We still haven't dealt with the question of what it means to be a prisoner of war in the war on terror, how that relates to our judicial system, how that relates to the Geneva convention, etc. We have a new paradigm but the administration hasn't articulated it definitively.

"We" are not going to have much say in the matter. The courts have given the prisoners at Guantanamo access to the US courts and that's going to be the forum for resolution of all questions.

Just as the SCOTUS had the final say on internment of the Japanese during WWII.

JMHO.

BTW, I strongly recommend "Fog of War", the documentary about Robert MacNamara, for insight into how ambivalence in high office can lead to events spinning out of control.



To: Lane3 who wrote (121492)6/23/2005 3:25:14 AM
From: KLP  Respond to of 793718
 
Appreciate your opinion, karen, and did follow the comments north, south, and east of this post. I too think there needs to be discussion as to what our Government's expectations are regarding the entire WOT, the question of taking prisoners or not, what is their classification, and all the etc's that have been discussed here. The question in the article below, "Are we a sitcom nation?" should be thought about by all of us....

Somewhere, after 9-11 and after we as a country, really realized what had happened, and it had sunk in.... I seem to remember President Bush remarking that a war on terrorism would be different than anything we had ever had to do before. It would possibly take a long time, even a generation or more.

This recollection is one of the reasons I've been able to understand (and come to grips with) that this WILL take time. I think that the reason we are all having difficulty with the possibility is total frustration that we (ourselves) can't just make "it" or "them" stop. We don't want to, as a nation of people, believe there are some people in the world that want to do us as much harm as possible.

Most people don't WANT remember that bin Laden SIGNED a piece of paper declaring war on the US (August 1996)....NOT the other way around. Until he declares that Al Qaeda is no longer in a war wit the US, doesn't that mean that we must protect ourselves?

This opinion by Austin Bay seems to speak to the issue....The date appears to be 19 September 2001....

War On Terrorism Will Take Guts
strategypage.com
by Austin Bay
Have you got the guts for five years of war against terrorism?

Substitute "collective will" for "guts," and you go to warfare's pivotal issue.

Of course, military leadership, training and operational capability matter immensely. High-tech weaponry always helps -- lasers and smart bombs are a big edge. Economic resiliency, productive capacity, labor talent, every one of the economist's buzzwords plays a role in war. Global political influence and cultural appeal provide powerful diplomatic tools.

But every grand strategist worth a footnote from Sun Tzu to von Clausewitz understands warfare is a clash of human wills. Clausewitz lays it out like so: "If you want to overcome your enemy, you must match your effort against his power of resistance, which can be expressed as the product of two inseparable factors, the total means at his disposal and the strength of his will."

The motive will of a man who spends five years preparing himself and his terror cell to hijack an airliner and smash it into a skyscraper is enormous, sociopathic perhaps, but large in big letters. Harnessed to a destructive enterprise, his hatred for modernity -- as expressed in Western culture, American power, global trade and liberal democracy --becomes a powerful propulsive force.

His cohorts (the gangsters who orchestrated the attacks and the rogue states who harbor them) are betting that America is a sitcom nation, a mere creature of Hollywood and Wall Street, and our attention span is short. We will lose interest, we'll change channels, we'll cut and run as gas prices climb and stock portfolios shrink.

At the moment, the Clausewitzean "total means at their disposal" (i.e., the terror syndicate's weapons and forces) pale compared to America's. But the terrorists believe their millenarian will trumps our abundant material means and utterly dwarfs our decayed, rotting, party-on-dude sense of purpose.

To successfully prosecute an effective war against this kind of enemy becomes a long-term commitment propelled by sustaining will and a renewed sense of national purpose.


Immediate emotions fade. The personal challenge is to transform individual indignation, fear and anger into resolve. When a democratic nation wages war, the collective will to sustain the conflict is the strategic key to victory -- and also the source of defeat. The national challenge is to forge the collective will to sustain the effort required to defeat the terror syndicates and the nations that harbor them despite the inevitable costs, mistakes, setbacks and lost lives.

The distance between individual indignation and sustained collective will is large, and bridging that chasm requires leadership. President George W. Bush and Secretary of State Colin Powell have particularly large leadership tasks, but the issue of leadership in this dark and dirty kind of war isn't theirs alone.

In a democracy, all of us share the privilege of leadership. It comes with the ballot as well as the Bill of Rights.

Mature citizens recognize that everyone has a leadership role, especially in times of crisis and in long-term collective efforts. The cooperation, care and common trust demonstrated by Americans evacuating the World Trade Center not only saved thousands of lives, it was indicative of America's capacity for individual responsibility and leadership. Cell phone calls to authorities by passengers on the hijacked planes illustrated not only cool but collective responsibility. Apparently, the passengers of one plane overpowered the hijackers. Though they died when the jet crashed outside of Pittsburgh, their physical courage and valor signal American capabilities in the clutch.

Self-critique is a great American strength. Self-critique spurs American innovation, contributes to adaptability, empowers our pursuit of justice, shapes our moral endeavors.

The acid of self-doubt, however, is something else. Over time, that acid destroys faith and trust. Destroy faith and trust, and the best-equipped militaries rust; the savviest diplomatic initiatives are futile gestures.

Our resolve will be tested by this long, dark war. A counter-terror war, waged against calculating radicals like Osama bin Laden, requires forceful and steady diplomacy. Such a war necessarily plays out in the globe's cruelest shadows, where targets are poorly defined, immediate goals fuzzy, mistakes a certainty, high casualties a real possibility.

The five year estimate for the length of this war isn't drawn from a hat. Prosecuting this war requires designing, implementing and relentlessly pursuing rigorous anti-terror economic, legal, information and political policies that complement and support military campaigns. To accomplish this takes time, treasure and perseverance, sustained by collective will.