Silicon Investor (SI) -- The First Internet Community

STOCKTALK

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor. We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community. If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.

Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (221973)	3/2/2007 4:39:29 AM
From: kumar	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

Nadine, correct me if I misunderstood, your post implies that the religion of Judaism and the nation of Israel are inseparable and the same thing. If that is the case, does a jewish person outside Israel (lets say a jewish person from India) owe allegiance to the religion or the nation or something else ?

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (221973)	3/2/2007 4:51:38 AM
From: Elroy	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Because the Jewish people are a people, have been one for thousands of years, have spent much of that time being driven out of one place after another. When somebody who all for national self-determination in every other case suddenly starts decrying and/or demonizing Jewish particularism and nationalism (which is what Zionism is), it is part and parcel of holding the Jews to a standard that never applied to anyone else. The Israelis are constantly being judged for not living up to a standard of behavior which in their circumstances would be suicidal. I don't agree. That argument assumes we're expected to support People A's self determination regardless of its affect on Peoples B, C and D. I don't think anybody minds if the Jews all live in one place. Go ahead. All else being equal, why should anyone care? In the case of Israel, people object to it primarily because there were plenty of non-Jews that were negatively affected by its creation in 1948, there are negatively affected by its current actions today, and they are attempting to claim Jerusalem, among the most multi-national places on the planet, as part of a Jewish homeland. So opposition to Israel is based on the harm it causes to other ethnicities who are from the land in question, and also the historical significance of the location. It has nothing to do (at least in my case) with any view of Jews or Judaeism. Mormons live together in Utah, inside the USA, as equals with their non-Mormon neighbors in Utah, inside the USA. It works fine. People worldwide are not (in general) anti-Mormon. If the Utah Mormons try to forcibly secede from the USA, and happen to displace loads of non-Mormon Utah residents in the process, do you think worldwide objection to that seccession is a sign of "anti-Mormonism", or of opposition to the secessionist activity? I think the latter. It has nothing to do with whether the seceders are Mormons, Jews, intellectuals, homosexuals, lepers, movie stars, members of mensa, or farmers. It is opposed by objective observers because the people who are not members of the secessionist group are disadvantaged. The characteristics of the secesssionist group itself is unimportant. If Israel weren't the Jewish homeland, and was instead the Greek Othodox Church Levant homeland, you're going to have the same response if the new homeland displaced a good chunk of the previous residents. Now normally this objection fades away, as it will in Tibet, as the displaced group has no backers that want to keep up the fight for generations. The Israelis foolishly decided to displace a group that isn't going to fade away because there are a billion of them. So I don't buy the argument. Objection to Israel is no more anti-Jewish than the idea of objection to Utah seceding from the US is anti-Mormon. Do you think Utah should forcibly secede from the US (if it could)? If not, are you anti-Mormon?

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (221973)	3/2/2007 5:12:00 AM
From: Elroy	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

Because the Jewish people are a people, have been one for thousands of years, have spent much of that time being driven out of one place after another. What do you think about this idea? The USA is probably one of the greatest enemies of the continued existence of what you call "the Jewish people". The USA is the great integrator and melting pot of various peoples, regardless of ethnicity, skin color or religion. Inter marriage is becoming more common, especially in the past 40 years as discrimination generally has declined, and as a result more and more Jews marry outside their "people". I don't know why this hasn't occurred in the 1000s of years that the Jews have been wandering the planet, but probably because most previous cultures were highly discriminatory so it was generally frowned upon. As America gets closer and closer to a society blind to race/ethnicity/religion, an ongoing process, but it is certainly ongoing, the likelihood that the bloodline of ANY group remains pure (in America) declines. I know lots of American Jewish people in their 30's and 40's that are married to non-Jews, and eventually their descendants are more likely to consider themselves just humans, and not Jewish humans. Some racist Jews in America will be inclined to marry only other Jews, but over time that group will become less and less. When a 20 year old American Jew has 100 prospective American mates to choose from, and by the numbers only 1 of those 100 are American Jews, you've got to expect the choice of mate more and more to include the 99 non-Jews. The natural result is that the American people become a mix of whatever, and Judaeism becomes a religion (at least in America) not the "nation" that you consider it today. This affect has already happened with the descendants of former Germans, Italians, and etc in America. Many of them are Americans of Italian-Swedish-Brazilian-Philippino heritage, and frankly, they could care less. Once someone becomes a 3rd generation American, their ancestory becomes less and less important. As time goes on American Jews that are only willing to marry other Jews will be, generally, considered racist Americans. So, in 200-300 years, America will absorb all its now Jewish people, and convert them into Americans who happened to be descendants of Jews, as Paula Abdul happens to be a descendant of Syrians (in other words, who cares?). This seems inevitable to me, and I consider it a good thing. In general I think things that separate human beings make us worse as a population, and things that bring us together make us better as a population. However, phrased in a negative way one result of America, the melting pot, will be (in America at least) to "wipe the Jewish nation off the map". It won't be a forced wipe; rather, it will be a selection made by the Jewish people themselves to inter-marry and have their descendants become American citizens first, and the descendants of Jews second. That's just something I've thought about - I don't mean it to be offensive to you, just a topic for discussion. If Michael90210 reads this, I've got you on ignore, if you flame me with your expletives, I'm not going to read them :-)