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To: Hawkmoon who wrote (630)	5/22/2007 12:31:59 AM
From: kumar	Respond to of 4152

the way to reform and things of that nature is thru education and the progress that leads from it. An army of whatever strength can not reform. Education can. Real efforts at education will take about 1 generation time and effort.

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (630)	5/22/2007 2:12:50 AM
From: Lazarus_Long	Respond to of 4152

Maybe I'm deluding myself in believing that reform and liberalization can have an impact on moderating the fanatics which exist within Arab culture... Man I hope not. The alternative is VERY bloody. Maybe it's the "clash of civilizations" that many have suggested we destined to fight in coming decades and we'd might as fight it now.. Hit me with the first nuke. I don't want to watch this. But I'm just not prepared to suggest it's time for to wage total war upon the Arab (read muslim) world by invading Saudi Arabia. Oh, THAT'S a very good way of getting it. The current Saudi gov't has trouble holding on. Its successor will be MUCH worse. And I don't think the American people, or the rest of the world are prepared for such a struggle either. So we do what we can, in an incremental manner. But I certainly am not convinced it will be totally successful. Can't be. The best we can get are popularly supported Muslim gov'ts that keep the nutjobs under control.

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (630)	5/22/2007 10:06:18 AM
From: one_less	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 4152

"So we do what we can, in an incremental manner. But I certainly am not convinced it will be totally successful." I have witnessed tremendous change over the last couple of decades. Even now we have 10m or so Muslims in North America. These people are excited about the Western opportunities and enterprises they have engaged in. That enthusiasm reaches around the world to cities and villages of heritage. We are blending and enmeshed to such a degree that the term 'over there' has a totally different context than it once did. Our freinds and relatives are over there, and theirs are here. Ask any woman how things turn out when she gets into a relationship with a man thinking she will be the one who changes him. Most of those women are in for a rude awakening. If your goal is to incrementally change them to be clones of you, you are destined for failure. If your goal is to learn, change, and renew global society for the better, it may be do-able to some extent.