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To: Hawkmoon who wrote (1160)5/29/2007 4:09:04 PM
From: michael97123Respond to of 4152
 
Amazing. We finally agree (again) on something. My hope is that one day the sunni and shiaa radicals will compete with each others for our acceptance/detente if not our friendship. The al quaeda movement is totally nihilistic. That cant last forever. How many generations will view blowing oneself up as cool? So you are accepting taliban democracy in a vote for sharia if there is a structure in place to vote them out if population changes their mind?
Now back to iraq for a minute. Joe Scarborough said it quite elegantly on msnbc this morning. Joe is a rightwing guy who like me wants us out of iraq so we can get back to fighting al quaeda effectively. In great wars armies change tactics. He mentioned in WW2 moving from a North Africa strategy to Italy. I thihk we can get out of the way in iraq for the most part but continue to help the anti-al quaeda sunnis with material, training etc. I dont think we should be taking sides in the shiaa/sunni strife. They need to settle that. There are many repubs who feel as i do and scarboro and buchanan. One of the republican candidates is going to pick up on this and front on tough on security but flexible on iraq. Dems blow it all the time because they cant admit there is a war on terror at all. Republicans need to concentrate on the prize and not get mired in one area. We won the cold war although we lost vietnam. Cold war, World war, war on terror all needed and need to be fought effectively. Battles are lost along the way.



To: Hawkmoon who wrote (1160)5/29/2007 4:34:04 PM
From: Nadine CarrollRespond to of 4152
 
Granted, the example we've seen with Hamas doesn't hold out much promise, but the Palestinian people are learning the consequences of making poor choices that the rest of the world rejects. They have a right to choose religious fanatics dedicated to the destruction of another country, but we, as a global community, have the right not to subsidize them

Don't hold your breath. Did you see the figures I posted a while back on how much they are still getting, Hamas or no? Everybody and his NGO wants to give money to the poor Pals and boy, do the Pals feel entitled.
_____________________________________

Palestinian Arabs doing violence to own cause

By Youssef M. Ibrahim

jewishworldreview.com | Syria and Al Qaeda laid siege to northern Lebanon at the aptly named Nahr al-Bared, or "Cold River," Palestinian Arab refugee camp, but it fell to the ever-obliging Palestinians to do the killing.

The ongoing fighting between the Palestinian Arabs and the Lebanese army in Tripoli says a lot about a skewered sense of entitlement felt by Palestinian refugees in many of the countries that play host to them and not much about their gratitude.

For its part, the Lebanese government has asserted that the Fatah al-Islam gang fighting its army is no more than a band of Syrian hired guns bent on disrupting Lebanon's latest effort to set up an international tribunal to try suspects in the 2005 assassination of a former Lebanese prime minister, Rafik Hariri.

U.N. investigators have ascertained that virtually all of the defendants prosecutors are likely to name are Syrian officials, including President Al-Assad, his brother, and a brother-in-law, among others.

Mayhem is always to be expected from Syria, but why are the Palestinian Arabs offering themselves up as tools of Syria, destroying whatever sympathy is still left for their cause, and turning themselves into pariahs in the Arab world? And why do they keep doing it over and over?

In 1990, some 400,000 Palestinian Arab residents of Kuwait cheered on, and even collaborated with, Saddam Hussein's Iraqi army during his invasion of the Gulf state; when the Gulf War liberated Kuwait a year and a half later, the Kuwaitis threw all their Palestinians out.

Twenty years earlier in Jordan, armed Palestinian Arab gangs waged the so-called Black September Civil War in an effort to overthrow King Hussein and take over the country.

Both episodes cost the Palestinian Arab cause dearly. Those in Kuwait lost some of the best living standards they ever enjoyed. In Jordan, after killing some 7,000 Palestine Liberation Organization fighters, Hussein threw the rest out along with their leader, Yasser Arafat, who had found his way to Lebanon by 1971.

Within a decade, Arafat and his PLO gangs had brought turmoil to Lebanon, in effect triggering the 1975 Lebanese Civil War and, in 1982, inviting an Israeli invasion of the country. Those travesties got the gangster leadership of the PLO evicted once again, this time to Tunisia, leaving behind some 350,000 Palestinian Arabs holed up in refugee camps of Lebanon, which quickly became 12 cesspools of radicalism. They are where Syria and Al Qaeda went to recruit the newest gang of mercenary Palestinian Arabs, Fatah al-Islam.

All of this invites the question of what makes our Palestinian Arab brethren gravitate constantly toward such lowest possible denominators and end up as the prime losers. After the Oslo Peace Accords of 1993 offered a chance for much of the gang leadership to return to the West Bank and Gaza, it took Arafat's crew less than two years to alienate even the most die-hard Israeli doves. Suicide bombings led to checkpoints, which led to two intifadas, thus ending the Palestinian Spring.

Shortly after Prime Minister Sharon pulled the Israeli army out of Gaza in the summer of 2005, handing the Palestinian Arabs their own territory to govern for the first time ever, they quickly transformed it into a "Mad Max" arena of shootings, kidnappings, and lawlessness. Unable to agree on anything, Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al-Aqsa Brigades, Popular Resistance Committees, and the other factions all went for each other's throats.

Similarly self-destructive impulses were seen in Lebanon this week, as Fatah al-Islam gang members made their way back to their camp — from a bank robbery — with the Lebanese army in hot pursuit. Because of a Byzantine pan-Arab agreement brokered in 1969, Lebanese forces cannot set foot in any of the camps hosting Palestinian Arab "guests" of Lebanon.

As you read this, the-bank-robbers-turned-freedom-fighters are likely shooting at the Lebanese army in the name of a free Arab Palestine. Sadly, this is the sort of bankruptcy the Palestinian mind has come to.

But the times, they are a-changing. When the Tripoli episode is done, and internecine fighting among the Palestinian Arabs in Gaza resumes, the world will have moved further away from any sense of commitment to the Palestinian cause, and so will other Arabs.

Writing in a mass circulation Egyptian daily, Al-Akhbar, one of the most widely read columnists in Egypt, Ahmad Ragab, ended a biting commentary about the Palestinian infighting with what seems to be a spreading sentiment: "A curse upon all your houses."



Youssef M. Ibrahim, a former New York Times Middle East Correspondent and Wall Street Journal Energy Editor for 25 years, is a freelance writer based in New York City and Dubai in the United Arab Emirates and a contributing editor of the NY Sun.

jewishworldreview.com



To: Hawkmoon who wrote (1160)5/29/2007 5:46:22 PM
From: one_lessRead Replies (3) | Respond to of 4152
 
"So long as the democratic mechanism is intact, I have confidence that people will ultimately reject their oppressive theology.

We lead by example, and preach the ultimate gospel of spiritual freedom. Any religion that must rely upon violence in order to proliferate it's message is some that all contemplative people can find common cause with."


Islam has spread thoughout the world including America without relying on violence to spread it's message. Violence has been employed by corrupt extremists but certainly the message of the religion has spread more broadly without relying on violence.

It may well come to pass that world civilization is remade with liberal democracy as the rule of order. As we see in America that does not preclude belief in an order and power beyond time and physical existence. Nor does it prohibit one democratic people from attempting to proliferate it's rulership by force upon other folk who are also living under a democracy. The confederate states of America were democratic and were defeated by the Northern States of America and forced to live under a Union of states. The defeated tribes of America were often living as spiritually free and democratic people. Mexico and the USA have been at war with each other over territory.

Having a democratic state in the ME does not eliminate the possibility of war over predominance of world views. People are as prone to fight to resist the spread of a 'message' as they are to proliferate the spread of a 'message'.