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Politics : View from the Center and Left -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: ManyMoose who wrote (63988)	5/7/2008 9:33:25 AM
From: Lane3	Respond to of 542243

it is too exhausting to argue with people who will never agree to a point of view that doesn't mirror their own. Huh? You expect others to change their minds? And without even making a compelling argument, simply by stating a contrary opinion? That was a joke, right?

To: ManyMoose who wrote (63988)	5/7/2008 9:40:46 AM
From: epicure	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 542243

We all want to "impose" our views, as in "vote for people we think represent us." You have had that chance with Mr. Bush, presumably. We (some of us here on this thread- not all) don't like where it has gotten the country. If you do, then we disagree- but the evidence of what has happened is manifest. It is quite possible you simply want a different kind of America and a different world than we want, but that does not make what we want "bad". Your ideas are not more objectively good or intelligent than ours are. You may not like multiculturalism, but some aspects of it are really nice. It's GREAT for people to be bilingual- they make better business people- so it's good to keep your native language as long as you learn English. Other foods, other ways of living, if offered peacefully, as most are in this country, enrich us. "American" culture isn't something in stasis, it's a living breathing thing- and I'm glad of it. I wouldn't want it frozen in to some crystallization of someone's idea of the "perfect" American society- because one size wouldn't fit all. I'm far left and proud of it- always have been, probably always will be- but many people here are not. I have no idea where the center is, but there seem to be people here on all sides of it- unlike some other threads, where the dominant viewpoint is pretty much the only accepted one.

To: ManyMoose who wrote (63988)	5/7/2008 9:51:39 AM
From: Rambi	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 542243

MM, I understand your feelings completely. I have the same experience when I post at PfP, which is unapologetically Right, and I;m not even that liberal. You feel that you can't make a statement without ten people responding far more seriously and confrontationally than you ever meant to provoke. Somtimes you might even be joking about something. And where you just thought you were stating an opinion, you find yourself defending an entire worldview. It can be very, very exhausting. But there are also times when good exchanges occur, civil ones, when I hear something that can alter MY view or at least see a different POV more clearly. These exchanges should be about gaining understanding of each other. When the tone gets condescending (last night I was told the books I read were LW revisionist history at PfP), it's best to take a break. (This morning I think that's funny; at midnight it bothered me) If you're feeling overwhelmed or defensive, go do something else. And remember that although you feel in the minority here, which makes it very hard to stay open, you don't always have to be planning a defense, but also listening to the points presented. Sometimes you can see through the mirror into the world beyond more clearly, even if you don't want to live there.

To: ManyMoose who wrote (63988)	5/7/2008 10:22:21 AM
From: Bridge Player	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 542243

Despite the kind welcomes I've received privately from members of this thread, it is too exhausting to argue with people who will never agree to a point of view that doesn't mirror their own. Yes, MM, it is tiring in a way. But also sometimes exhilarating to point out the fallacies in the liberal arguments. It's been fun to have you, bearcatbob, slacker, Tim, sometimes Lane3, and a few others here recently. Please stay and don't give up the fight. Dale has been pretty welcoming all things considered and I think we owe it to the cause of rationality.

To: ManyMoose who wrote (63988)	5/7/2008 10:24:22 AM
From: KonKilo	Respond to of 542243

...it is too exhausting to argue with people who will never agree to a point of view that doesn't mirror their own. I have seen people here, myself included, change their minds in response to a well-reasoned argument. The level of education and awareness on this thread has caused me to better prepare my arguments. Perhaps it would benefit you to do likewise?

To: ManyMoose who wrote (63988)	5/7/2008 10:49:58 AM
From: JohnM	Respond to of 542243

. . . it is too exhausting to argue with people who will never agree to a point of view that doesn't mirror their own. I'm surprised, MM. I didn't participate because I kept waiting for an argument rather than a simple assertion or two. If you only assert, you are only going to get assertions back.

To: ManyMoose who wrote (63988)	5/7/2008 11:20:12 AM
From: biotech_bull	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 542243

it is too exhausting to argue with people who will never agree to a point of view MM, Hope you reconsider - it is good to have diverse viewpoints and Dale does a marvelous job of keeping things civil. Opinions formed over years aren't easy to change in a matter of a few posts. It can be exhausting because being wrong & having the last word is often not mutually exclusive. Multiculturalism shoved down our throats like somehow American culture just doesn't cut it. I disagree with that POV because it seems to assume american culture is monolithic and unchanging.

To: ManyMoose who wrote (63988)	5/7/2008 12:50:29 PM
From: cnyndwllr	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 542243

"...it is too exhausting to argue with people who will never agree to a point of view that doesn't mirror their own." If you feel like you have made a good argument for your position and have effectively countered the arguments of those who will not change their point of view, the process is not exhausting but rather energizing. Using that as a benchmark, I'd suggest you present logical, compelling arguments for the views you hold or, if you can't present arguments like that for those particular views, that you adopt some views which you can support with compelling arguments. It's that simple. And, on another issue, you write: "Multiculturalism shoved down our throats like somehow American culture just doesn't cut it." Coming from the guy who had just suggested that we somehow could, or should, protect women of other cultures from wearing face covering, that's pretty funny. Ed