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Politics : View from the Center and Left -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Lane3 who wrote (82622)	9/7/2008 9:59:24 AM
From: epicure	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 541699

The biggest problem with McCain (for a liberal) is 1. the justices he would appoint to the Supreme Court- who really could have a large impact on social liberty and the entanglement of church and state and 2. the militaristic/jingoistic bent of his party and some of his speeches- the same messy semi-colonialist attitude that has embroiled us in two wars in which we have spent a great deal of money, and which look like they will cost us a lot more- and whose "results" at the moment are iffy and intangible- at least as concerns any positives for the US. The lessening of the insurgency in Iraq is not really a net positive for us unless we actually get something out of the "new" Iraq that develops. If what develops is an Iraq/Iran nexus, we will actually (imo) have lost a great deal by our little adventure in Mesopotamia. Obama would certainly have a different take on education than the republicans have, and if he spent more, and spent it more wisely, that could have a salubrious effect. The teachers unions are in some cases a stumbling block, but in some ways I think just as "Only Nixon could go to China"- it is perhaps true that only a progressive can take on the teacher's unions. I don't know if Obama would or could do it, but it would be nice if he did. He talks a lot more about education that McCain does, and Obama doesn't have the burden of having a lot of people in his party who simply hate all the schools, and who want religious education, home schooling and state funded parochial education. That kind of party load makes it hard to do any real good in a public education system. I've seen a lot more devil effect elsewhere and a lot more halo effect. Now that the republicans have their own Messiah, they are even more irrationally exuberant than the dems. While I do think some people here have overstated what Obama can do, I do think there are large and meaningful differences between McCain and Obama, and for anyone who thinks they are a democrat, and who has any affinity for the social freedoms that democrats espouse, it behooves them in this election more than any other I can remember, to vote democrat- because the nature of the Supreme Court for the foreseeable future is at stake- and the culture "wars" are often settled in the SC.

To: Lane3 who wrote (82622)	9/7/2008 10:13:41 AM
From: Rambi	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 541699

For the record, I am delighted to see you back posting and challenging. I know you aren't doing it to "make us weep", an attitude that just tends to encourage the partisan response. Reading the mindless reaction to Palin by the right (talk about paeans) reminded me how easy it is to react in the same way as one gets defensive about one's own candidate. I had already decided to vote for Obama, and the Palin nomination cemented my vote- but based more on what it says about McCain than on Palin herself. I understand your point about the unlikelihood of her being president-- at least immediately- but stranger things have happened. And there is nothing, nothing, in her record that has equipped her for the global part of the job- least of all any attempts on her own to learn about the world. Heck, they can't even let her out for two weeks, she is so unready. There are people on this board more qualified than she is. I don't see it as some Lincolnesque we the people choice, but a thoughtless, politically expedient gamble. I am not a gambler. That's one reason Obama was a hard choice for me. Well, that and not being a liberal either. I do think the reaction to Palin was at first shock, and then curiosity, and then consternation, which may have made us react more strongly. So keep us honest. Ask the questions when the Odes to Obama get out of hand.

To: Lane3 who wrote (82622)	9/7/2008 4:39:17 PM
From: Cogito	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 541699

>>I do agree that having Palin as President would not mean that there would be a much higher probability of Creationism being taught in schools. But that's really not the point. That was exactly the point to which I was responding. Perhaps you were skimming. << Karen - I don't think that was the point in the post to which you were responding. What I took from it was that the author - I don't remember who it was - felt that Palin's support for Creationism in schools was a dealbreaker. Your inference that he must think there was a high risk of school policies being changed might not have been correct. He might just have felt, as I do, that her support for Creationism in schools says a lot about how Sarah Palin thinks, and that it sends a more general message about her. For example, she says that she thinks "both sides" of the Creation/Evolution debate should be taught. That's a rather limited view. There are at least hundreds of creation stories among the many cultures represented within the American population. If we want to provide students with all the available information and allow them to reach their own conclusions, we should teach all those creation stories. In any case, there's no real scientific debate. There's science, and then there's a religious/political viewpoint wherein that science is questioned. I know you like to debate one sharply defined point at a time, but sometimes things are interconnected. - Allen