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Pastimes : And The 7th Angel Sounded -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Jamey who wrote (70)	12/28/1997 7:34:00 PM
From: Sidney Reilly	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 609

Hi Jim, I know this is a controversial issue. Shalom & I were discussing this on the Jesus Financial Freedom thread and someone said it was not the place for it so Shalom started this thread so we could move over hear. But I did not pick up on the subject again right away. Are you saying there will be two raptures? because if the Church is already taken up during the time I laid out in my last post and yet there are believing gentiles still on earth during the tribulation then the Lord has to come back again to get them? I don't see any support for that myself. The pivotal event in Revelation and God's plan is the mark of the beast. The reason is that this event will be the final seperating of the wheat from the tares. God is so just He will let us make the seperation ourselves. Those who refuse the mark, wheat; those that take it, tares. That will be the defining moment in God's great plan. After that seperating the end can come, all decision is past. The church is here on earth for that process as it says many times in Revelation and I mentioned in my last post. The pre-trib interpretation of 2 Thess. 2:6-7 as the rapture is not supported by any other scripture. It doesn't even say "he who now restrains" is the Church. And nowhere is the Church referred to as "he" in God's Word. Always as the bride but not he. Paul says they know what is restraining the lawless one. I think it is most likely one of God's high ranking angels that is restraining the lawless one. I don't want to cause "arguments" but we were going to get into this eventually when Shalom started this thread. I like and respect you Jim. I just want all the Church to be prepared and not mislead in a way that leaves them unprepared for what we must face. Come Lord Jesus, Bob

To: Jamey who wrote (70)	12/28/1997 8:50:00 PM
From: Jane Hafker	Respond to of 609

Well, my suggestion is simply for a separate thread for the Pre-tribbers, period, which I most certainly see above anything else I see. On ASk God it will become a battle, and on Jesus Financial it will become a battle, because if the Pre-Tribbers get to discussing it and enjoying it, there is a tendency for those who do not to come and correct the theory. Then we can't discuss it, because the subject becomes pure controversy. Gregor is quite happy to discuss the event as he appears to be a pretribber also, but mention of it becomes an argument with people leaping in to almost stop the discussions as heresy. I just want to go through Rev. 7 and Rev. 14 and analyze them in a studious manner, enjoying it, rather than end up in another pointless Christian squabble that reminds me of 12th century France. But for me to infere that anyone should not be doing all the arguing they are willing to do with someone else who feels likewise, that is not my place. And Shalom may well be enjoying these exchanges on the "Rapture". So of course it could continue here too be anyone who felt inclined to debate only. BUT. We could also have a peaceful and wonderful place to discuss the signs of the times, and also a safe ground to discuss the rapture. That would leave Jesus Financial free of scripture battles, as many good things evolve on that thread, and I hate to see anything that is really fruitful sidetracked by a small controversy among the believers themselves unless it is really, really important. Jesus Financial pulls in many people who might not want to witness another scripture battle, but would rather see that Jesus probably and apparently IS coming back real soon. Period.

To: Jamey who wrote (70)	12/28/1997 10:40:00 PM
From: Sidney Reilly	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 609

Jim, Here is Shalom's post inviting James and All to discuss the various aspects of the "rapture" on this thread. Message 3002157 I don't mind any discussion of opposing views but there are a couple of things that I would like to avoid. #1 would be avoid name calling because of opposing views. I really got turned off by the name calling on the Ask God thread. #2 is that we have been Christians for a long time and to a large part our views may already be firmly set on the subject. Because of that would we be apt to look at the other view with the idea that it can't be true? In that case the discussion would be each one trying to convince the other they are incorrect. For example I believe the pre-trib theory is enormously appealing because it offers the hope that we will not have to suffer any tribulation. But God says we are refined by fire! Will anyone agree with me that we are refined by fire and that is God's way? Does anyone agree that the "american" part of the Curch is the most comfortable there has ever been in history at this time? Where better place for such a comfortable doctrine as pre-trib to spring from? It is a doctrine that fits the american dream, isn't it! Has the "american dream" blinded some to sound doctrine. Many peoples in other countries have no such illusions about suffering and would have no problem with the idea of going through the tribulation. They suffer already, but we don't in america. It's almost against the law. I know lot's of people still suffer in this country ie. blacks, indian, poor but I'm talking about the white middle class that runs this country. The ones that go to church every Sunday and listen to comfortable sermons. Don't anyone get offended please, I am just trying to show why pre-trib sprang up here and now and let's take a look at this sign of the times. Bob PS 2 Tim. 4:3-4 PSS People vote with their feet and preachers who preach uncomfortable truths probably will find their congregation getting smaller and smaller as the people squirm in the pews every Sunday fretting about what is to come. Doesn't help the offering either!