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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Grainne who wrote (14487)12/30/1997 6:56:00 PM
From: James R. Barrett  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 108807
 
>>"..........you understand that the atheism in the Soviet Union was part of a chain reaction to horrible abuses of the peasants under their religion historically, and also that the Nazis were quite religious (TRUE, HITLER LIVES IN A BEAUTIFUL COLONIAL STYLE HOME ON THE EAST OF HEAVEN NEXT DOOR TO HIMMLER). Of course it would be helpful to remember here as well the complicity by the Catholic Church in France with the Nazis (SHAME, SHAME, WOULD YOU AGREE THAT WE SHOULD HANG 10 FRENCH BISHOPS AND 5 CARDINALS TO GET EVEN?), which of course the Vatican acknowledged this year (LETS HANG THE POPE TOO, THAT'LL TEACH EM). I am sure you are sick of my mentioning that!!!

Don't get mad, get even,
Jim



To: Grainne who wrote (14487)12/30/1997 7:21:00 PM
From: JF Quinnelly  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 108807
 
The Lolitae are around. They wouldn't miss trying to cadge a Christmas present from me.

I really don't use a recipe when I throw together a gumbo. Part of the technique is simply practice, and using what you like. You can start with a roux, or not, you can use okra, or not, you can use any number of ingredients. I usually use chicken, ham, shrimp, okra, tomatoes, celery, onion, chicken stock, tomato sauce, bay leaf, thyme, basil, salt, pepper, red pepper. And, of course, you serve it on a bed of rice.

Del and I have both gone to great lengths to try to make you understand that the atheism in the Soviet Union was part of a chain reaction to horrible abuses of the peasants under their religion historically,

You and Del must be the only two on Earth who would believe this. Most everyone else understands that people are responsible for their actions. Using your logic, the Nazis could pass off responsibility for their mass murders on (fill in the blank). Apparently you think the Catholic Church belongs in that blank. Most people would put "Hitler" or "The Nazis Themselves" in that blank.

Lenin's own advocacy of political violence and terror are found throughout his writings. He wrote about and advocated using terror against his own citizenry. That, and Marx's atheism derived from Feuerbach, have been constants in the Communist world. The Communist Party of the USSR was acting on the writings of its own leaders, and on its own philosophy when it treated its citizens as expendable cogs in the wheel. Pol Pot repeated the policy on a grand scale, and somehow I don't think even you and Del will be able to figure out how to blame that on the oppression of the Russian serfs by the Orthodox Church. I don't see any need to retract my observation about the quality of the "logic" that I often find this thread. But you all do amuse me.



To: Grainne who wrote (14487)12/30/1997 7:37:00 PM
From: JF Quinnelly  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 108807
 
and also that the Nazis were quite religious.

Yup, the Swastika was the emblem of their religion. It was a mish-mash of Germanic paganism (the swastika representing the storm of Odin), some nature worship, Nietsche's Will to Power and the Ubermensch, a pseudo-Darwinian racial theory mingled with fantasies of Aryan tribal greatness, and some Romantic themes found in Wagner. Let's hope your parlor-paganism is milder than its cousin from the Third Reich.



To: Grainne who wrote (14487)1/1/1998 1:54:00 AM
From: JF Quinnelly  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 108807
 
"National Socialism and Christian concepts are incompatible. The Christian Churches build upon the ignorance of men and strive to keep large portions of the people in ignorance because only in this way can the Christian Churches maintain their power. On the other hand, National Socialism is based on scientific foundations. Christianity's immutable principles, which were laid down almost two thousand years ago, have increasingly stiffened into life-alien dogmas. National Socialism, however, if it wants to fulfill its task further, must always guide itself according to the newest data of scientific researches.

The Christian Churches have long been aware that exact scientific knowledge poses a threat to their existence. Therefore, by means of such pseudo-sciences as theology, they take great pains to suppress or falsify scientific research. Our National Socialist worldview stands on a much higher level than the concepts of Christianity, which in their essentials were taken over from Judaism. For this reason, too, we can do without Christianity.

No one would know anything about Christianity if pastors had not crammed it down his throat in childhood. The so-called loving God by no means reveals the knowledge of His existence to young people, but amazingly enough, and despite His omnipotence, He leaves this to the efforts of a pastor. When in the future our youth no longer hear anything about this Christianity, whose doctrine is far below our own, Christianity will automatically disappear.

It is also astonishing that prior to our own era nothing was known to mankind about this Christian God and even since then the great majority of the inhabitants of our earth have known nothing about Christianity. Because of this, according to the arrogant Christian dogma, they are damned from the outset.

When we National Socialists speak of a belief in God (Gottlaubigkeit: non-Christian theism), by God we do not understand, as do naive Christians and their clerical beneficiaries, a manlike being who is sitting around in some corner of the spheres. Rather, we must open the eyes of mankind to the fact that in addition to our unimportant Earth there exist countless other bodies in the universe, many of them surrounded, like the Sun, by planets and these again by smaller bodies, the moons. The force which moves all these bodies in the universe, in accordance with natural law, is what we call the Almighty or God. The assertion that this world-force can worry about the fate of every individual, every bacillus on Earth, and that it can be influenced by so-called prayer or other astonishing things, is based on a suitable dose of naivete or on outright commercial effrontery.

In contrast, we National Socialists call upon ourselves to live as naturally as possible -- that is, in keeping with the laws of life. The more thoroughly we know and attend to the laws of nature and life, the more we adhere to them, the more we correspond to the will of the Almighty. The deeper our insight into the will of the Almighty, the greater will be our success.

It follows from the incompatibility of National Socialist and Christian concepts that we must oppose any strengthening of existing Christian denominations and must refuse to give them any assistance. We can make no differentiation between the various Christian confessions. That is also why the idea of establishing an Evangelical Reich Church by gathering together the various Evangelical Church bodies has to be fully abandoned. For the Evangelical Church opposes us with the same hostility as the Catholic Church. Any strengthening of the Evangelical Church would merely work against us.

In earlier generations, the leadership of the people lay exclusively in the hands of the Church. The state limited itself to passing laws and regulations and above all to the task of administration. The actual leadership of the people was not vested in the state, but in the Church, which, through the agency of the pastor, exercised the strongest influence over the lives of individuals, families, and the community as a whole. Anything that was not to the liking of the Church was supressed with unexampled ruthlessness. For centuries the state had to borrow from the influence of the Church through the most varied donations. The Church alone decided whether it would aid the state or range itself against it. The state was fully dependent on the assistance of the Church. The struggles of the German emperors against the Pope, in the Middle Ages and in modern times, were always bound to fail, since it was not the emperor but the Church that exercised leadership over the people.

This ideological dependence of the state on the Church, and the fact that the state had relinquished the leadership of the people, essentially became so obvious that no one dared seriously question it. Not to take this indisputable fact into consideration was regarded as the acme of political stupidity -- up to the time of the Nazi seizure of power.

For the first time in German history, the Fuhrer consciously has the leadership of the people entirely in his own hands. With the party, its subordinate apparatus, and the associations connected with it, the Fuhrer wrought for himself and the German Reich leadership an instrument that made him entirely independent of the Church. Any influence that would impair or damage the leadership of the people exercised by the Fuhrer with the aid of the National Socialist German Workers Party has to be eliminated. To an ever increasing degree the people must be wrested from Churches and their agents, the pastors. Obviously, the Churches, from their standpoint, will and must defend themselves against this loss of power. But never again must the Church regain an influence in the leadership of the people. This must absolutely and finally be broken.

Only the Reich leadership, together with the party and the organs and associations connected with it, has the right to lead the people. Just as the harmful influence of astrologers, soothsayers, and other swindlers has been suppressed by the state, so it must be made absolutely impossible for the Church to exercise its old influence over all racial comrades. Only then will the future of the Reich and Volk be secured for all time.

We would be repeating the catastrophic mistakes of past centuries if after our comprehension of the ideological hostility of all Christian denominations we were now in any manner whatever to contribute to the strengthening of the various Churches. The interest of the Reich does not lie in overcoming ecclesiastical particularism but, rather, in maintaining and strengthening it.

Martin Bormann
Reich Leader
1942

From Kirchliches Jahrbuch fur die evangelische Kirche in Deutschland, 1933-1944, pp 470-472

reprinted in Nazi Culture, George Mosse, Schocken, 1966



To: Grainne who wrote (14487)1/1/1998 3:03:00 PM
From: Jack Clarke  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 108807
 
Christine:

Sorry to be disagreeing with you so much lately. No disrespect meant. Also, sorry for the late answer to this post. I must again disagree that the nazis were very religious. Going to church, or calling onself a member of a certain religion does not make one religious. I think one's beliefs and more importantly, actions, may better define the religious person. The Nazis loved Beethoven's 9th symphony, the last movement of which is Schiller's "Ode to Joy" set to music. I always cringe when I see old movies of Nazis wiping a tear away as the chorus sings, "Alle Menschen werden Brueder" (All people become brothers) and all the while their crematoria are destroying other people who happen to be of another religious persuasion.

Jack