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Biotech / Medical : Zonagen (zona) - good buy? -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: khrnyc who wrote (1987)	1/23/1998 3:36:00 AM
From: khrnyc	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 7041

And finally, a few questions: 1) With p values of 0.01 and 0.001 in the two US trials, the studies seem statistically significant to me. Both were double blinded, placebo controlled, and one added a crossover component. What specifically do people object to in the study design and results? 2) If data from the phase III trials were meaningless, why did four major pharma companies (each of which did independent due diligence in reviewing both the trials and the patent applications) ALL submit term sheets to Zona? If it were really nonsense would all four independently submit term sheets? 3) If the lawsuit referred to in Asencio's Jan 9, 1998 "press release" was known to SGP in July of 1995; and in fact the claims were legitamate; and this therefore means that zona is illigitamate; why did SGP do the Vasomax deal? 4)Investor relations at SGP assured me that Zona's patent applications had been scrutinized by a team from SGP. What specifically is it about the patents that people feel limit the patent and/or make it unenforceable? Please, no platitutes like "its just plain 'ol generic phentolamine" and "phentolamine has no role in ED" 5) With what frequency does SGP make investments of this kind and magnitude (actual numbers would be helpful). I know of at least one example where they made a deal with an "infamous" company (ICN) that is working out quite well. ICN's rebetol (in combination with Intron A) is now awaiting approval at the FDA for the treatment of hepatitis C. Come on, let's try for some meaningful discourse.

To: khrnyc who wrote (1987)	1/23/1998 4:47:00 AM
From: Bill Wexler	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 7041

Keith - I think you made an oopsie. In post #1880 on Jan 21, you stated: << I do not have any affiliation with ZONA, although after proper due diligence I presently hold a long position in the company.>> Then, in post #1928 on Jan 21, you stated: <<To be more clear, Vasomax is a rapidly dissolving tablet containing the active ingrediant phentolamine. It is not a pill that is swallowed. To my understanding, the tablet is placed in the mouth with some water and dissolves rapidly so that it can then be readily absorbed by the oral mucosa.>> Finally, in post #1986 on Jan 23, you stated: <<Contrary to my posting #1928, vasomax is in fact a pill which is swallowed. It is "an oral formulation which comprises in combination, a vasodilator agent in a rapidly dissolving tablet." I apologize to those of you who I unintentionally led to believe otherwise.>> Here's what I don't understand Keith, so maybe you can help me out here... You claim to be a physician who after "proper due diligence" decided to plunk money down on Zonagen stock. Forgive me for being a bit skeptical and cynical, *but how is it that you didn't know at this late date that Vasomax is a pill that is swallowed?* In fact, you went to great lengths describing the worthless patent before realizing that you were caught in a lie. I've seen a lot of stock scams. Some of these companies did excellent jobs in deceiving investors for long periods of time before their frauds were uncovered. However, in Zonagen's case, I would say that this is one of the sloppiest, most amateurish con-jobs I have ever seen. In one of my earlier posts I stated that one of the key mistakes Joe Podolski made when engineering this fraud was that he didn't spend enough money on better shills. Now you know why. Zonagen is a fraud and a scam, and Joe Podolski is a filthy crook.

To: khrnyc who wrote (1987)	1/23/1998 9:54:00 AM
From: Tokyo VD	Respond to of 7041

Keith, I agree that it is important to discuss the merits of the investment in Zonagen, but I'm constantly amazed at your insistence of independence. How did you ever come by the information from the ED conference? How did a NYC doctor obtain a copy of an an International Patent Application? You seem to have resources that belie the notion that you are an "individual investor". Looking forward to some real insight into your sources before we have a sit down on the merits of Vasomax. Tokyo

To: khrnyc who wrote (1987)	1/23/1998 4:24:00 PM
From: Dr. Voodoo	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 7041

Hey Poodle, You gotta love the wording in this abstract. Human pharmacology of orally administered phentolamine. Imhof, P. R.; Garnier, B.; Brunner, L.; Keller, G.; Rohrer, T. Ciba-Geigy Ltd., Basel, Switz. Phentolamine Heart Failure Other Card. Disord., Proc. Int. Workshop (1976), 11-22. Editor(s): Taylor, Stanley Howard; Gould, Lawrence A. Publisher: Huber, Bern, Switz. CODEN: 37HTAE. Conference written in English. CAN 88:131073 Abstract Orally administered phentolamine (I) [50-60-2] was readily absorbed and exerted cardiovascular effects in healthy subjects even in doses of only 20-40 mg. After i.v. administration, I caused vasodilation, affecting both the arterial and venous circulation, and displayed a cardiostimulant and adrenolytic action. Since the duration of action of the com. available prepn. is relatively short, lasting only 2 1/2-4 h, a slow-release formulation has been developed, the effects of which persist for more than 7 h. Does anybody have this paper yet? Does this mean that Orally administered Phentolamine is readily absorbed when you eat it, or does it mean that the oral formulation of phentolamine is readily absorbed when you inject it? Corrolary: It's not good to sniff coke because the aluminum can is too big to fit up your nose.

To: khrnyc who wrote (1987)	1/23/1998 7:37:00 PM
From: Dr. Voodoo	Respond to of 7041

Dr. Rubin, I'm confused, could you please explain the following? How, if using Zonagen's own data, would an undetectable amount of phentolamine in the blood produce an erection and allow for intercourse at 1.5 hours? How was the amount of phentolamine in blood measured according to the patent application? Are there earlier timepoints in this experiment that you did not mention? These tables compared the plasma concentrations (ng/ml). Drug (40mg) 0.25 hr 0.05 hr 0.75 hr 1.00 hr 1.50 hr 2.0 hr ----------- ------- ------- ------- ------- ------- ------ standard 0 0 0 0 0 2.8 Vasomax 13 17 14 12 7 0 (mean) From your expert medical opinion I excerpted these: "The effect of phentolamine administered in this way is seen within 10 to 20 minutes after a single administration of the drug. "50mg of generic oral phentolamine. Six years later, Dr. Adrian Zorgniotti repeated this study and again found that orally ingested phentolamine allowed successful intercourse in 36 of 85 (42.3%) of the patients he tested. There was one little problem however. "Intercourse took place 1.5 Hours! after taking the oral phentolamine. "(recall the 1.5 hours to intercourse in the prior studies)". TIA Rob

To: khrnyc who wrote (1987)	1/23/1998 9:05:00 PM
From: Dr. Voodoo	Respond to of 7041

Dr. Rubin, "Does anybody have the Imhof study referred to by Asencio (Jan 15, 1998)? It would be good to know what the starting dosages were...." As I have stated on this thread before, I would not doubt Asensio's numbers just like I wouldn't doubt yours, or Zonagen's. As an investor and scientist it is up to me to be able to interpret them. Without doubting or looking at the numbers from the paper, I will make a couple of simplifying assumptions. These are purely speculative and I would appreciate any help by getting the actual data from the study. Even some expert doc's could chime in too! Assumption #1. Imhof did not give his patients a toxic dose of phentolamine. Assumption #2 The dosages were given orally. I think these are reasonable assumptions. Assumption #3 The toxicity and therapeutic index of phentolamine hasn't changed,for the average person, significantly since 1975. This one might be a little shakey. Given this information, could I not presume that I could give someone a Phentolamine pill at a non-toxic dose and achieve the same or higher blood levels of Phentolamine? Does this point not make the Zonagen patent and the question of starting doses moot? Rob