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To: Pugs who wrote (40631)	2/5/1998 3:34:00 PM
From: tonto	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 55532

>>>Those being exececuted are predominantly poor, black & brown.<<< On a percentage basis, the wealthy commit far less murders, and on a percentage basis, there are more predominantly poor,...therefore one should expect the above result.

To: Pugs who wrote (40631)	2/5/1998 4:35:00 PM
From: s martin	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 55532

>>I'm an atheist, so 'God' for me equates to 'humanity' or 'nature'<< Thank you for this clarification, as it seems your constant references to God, belie your actions and therefore add to confusion. To: +Ron Reece (40352 ) From: +Pugs Wednesday, Feb 4 1998 11:39AM EST Reply # of 40633 <off topic> Its' ignorant to critque things you have no understanding of. As for boxing, to see it as 'violence' is to only see punches and blood, what glorifies humanity are 'acts'....an artist 'expresses', he 'glorifies' acts thru expression, We get closer to God by being 'godlike', if an artist can make a moment last forever, he/humanity is closer to God....to 'see' a Picasso....is a realization that Picasso is immortal, that 'humanity' is something 'grand'.... A fighter 'lives' moments....he asks questions of himself the 'avg.' guy doesn't, the answers to those questions bring him closer to God....to see boxing on the level you do evades these questions, a 'fighter'faces problems, never evades them, in doing so, not only is the fighter stronger physically, but stronger on a level which brings him closer to God...only taking risks will you find solutions.... I'm not surprised you endorse murder...I don't endorse the atrocious acts of this woman, but , I'm aware that you share much with this woman delighting in her demise. When a member of society is punished by murder , society can never be surprised when its members punish with murder. Its' the same act, and seperates us from the 'glories' of humanity. IMO, to revel in delight at this woman's demise, brings you closer to her and further from God..... IMO, humanity is measured in moments, moments are defined by acts....as 'humans' we 'glorify' acts thru 'expression' to bring us closer to immortality.....if you align yourself with the delight of retribution & murder, if you see boxing only as violence....you clearly demonstrate the differences between us and make me proud to be liberated from you. Pugs

To: Pugs who wrote (40631)	2/5/1998 4:47:00 PM
From: FTJoe	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 55532

[Off topic] - I call myself a devout atheist. I understand why people argue that if we wish to consider ourselves more than animals, or superior than our ancestors, or morally fit, that capital punishment should be abolished. Problem is, not all members of our society wish to play by our rules which will allow our society to continue to grow and evolve. I think the best thing our society can do, and the most intelligent, is to remove these folks from society. I could care less if it's a deterrent, or if it makes victims feel better, I think it's best for society. We're talking about folks that willfully act outside the rules and most times are purposefully acting out at "society". Thinking that killing people makes us just as bad, or will produce more people that will act outside the rules is silly(IMO). It worked for the neanderthals, it'll still work for us, we're not as different from our ancestors as we would like to believe. Looking the other way or thinking these types should be locked up forever is something I just don't understand. By the way, you'd cringe if you saw my list of other offenses that I believe warrant death. Child abuse(caveat on better testing of surgical and chemical castration), rape, infanticide, etc. The Missing Link!!

To: Pugs who wrote (40631)	2/5/1998 6:04:00 PM
From: David R	Respond to of 55532

<OFF TROPIC> Chrisianity ( your quote ) has , historically, been the source of much suffering , oppression, and murder Actually, it is the church as an institution (as opposed to a body of believers) that has been the source of grief in the past. However, as Stalin, Mao, Hitler, and Pol Pot are were/are stauch Darwinist athiests, the 20th century has seen the mantle of oppression taken from the Vatican (whose past I can not defend) and handed to the Darwinists who have established unprecedented levels of brutality. Today's suffering, oppression, and murder, most often, comes from those who are firm believers in "survival of the fittest" as a basic moral law of nature, a doctrine which necessitates and legitimizes genocide.

To: Pugs who wrote (40631)	2/5/1998 6:23:00 PM
From: Hawkmoon	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 55532

Pugs, If you want to compare violent societies, why don't you turn your gaze to Colombia. They have had institutionalized violence since the "La Violencia" period of the 50's and 60's. I haven't seen much change since then. BTW, Colombia doesn't have the death penalty. (at least the last time I researched it) As for the disproportionate number of quantity of executions being of poor minorities I would agree with the fact that most are poor. However, Carla Tucker was not black, and neither are most of the serial killers who most deserve to be executed. As for the rich getting off, I have no disagreement with you at all. The statistics would also say that most rich people don't commit the quantity of violent premeditated murders that are found in the lower echelons of society. They usually have the money to pay to have it done. Trying to play the race and class card is a cop-out. I don't care what strata of society you hail from. If you are irrefutably guilty of a capital offense I say "hang 'em high" (and do it in public like the old days.) You can't oppose the death penalty simply because the system is flawed. You have to make the system more egalitarian in its judgements. White collar criminals are also not sentenced as heavily as some of the petty crack dealers. So should I let the crack dealers off the hook?? No... I should sustain higher penalties for those who defraud or manipulate innocent victims. Regards, Ron

To: Pugs who wrote (40631)	2/5/1998 6:32:00 PM
From: David R	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 55532

*** OFF TOPIC RE: America is a violent country, probably one of the most violent in the world The rate of violence in America has been climbing while the number of executions is very low (relative to other times int he past 2 centuries). Why is that? A recent article in the New York Times (by a prominent MIT Profesor of Psychology) suggests that parents should be allowed to kill "neonates" (babies less than one week old) without fear of legal consequence. His assertion was that a newborn baby has no more right to live than a mouse. We can not ever claim to have any respect for human life, until we respect the most helpless and innocent among us. If you want to find the source of the violence in the US, you need to look at the philosophical assumptions that are woven into the fabric of modern thought. Look deeply at those things which are considered so absolutely true and correct, that they are never even challenged. I suggest you start with an examination of the 'Holmesian Bad man' and the big hand of society (i.e. natural law).

To: Pugs who wrote (40631)	2/5/1998 8:34:00 PM
From: KMT	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 55532

<OFF TOPIC> Pugs: I'm an atheist, so 'God' for me equates to 'humanity' or nature'....Chrisianity ( your quote ) has , historically, been the source of much suffering , oppression, and murder.....so,that's neither here nor there, 'Humanity' must be elevated above vulgar 'acts', not reduced to it. Interesting. I don't know many real atheists. Taking your view that their is no God, why should humanity be elevated above vulgar acts? Given your view we're just a little more evolved then monkeys. What's wrong with killing then? Animals kill other animals? What's your basis for right and wrong? Why is it wrong to kill? As a more evolved species, wouldn't it be better for us to kill the weak of our species so that only the strong breed? Why should 'we' respect 'human life' if we're just a pile of mud that randomnly by chance happened to be able to some amazingly more complex things then the mud we walk on? I've always wondered how an atheist would answer those questions. Have you ever considered them? Thanks, KMT P.S. Not trying to attack you, I've always just wondered though how an atheist defends his position. If you've never considered the above questions that's ok too. Most people don't know why they believe what they believe, they just believe it because it's convenient or it's what they were told to believe. Very little critical thinking goes on in our society any longer. It's a shame. This is evidenced by what we see around us. BTW, I believe government is a reflection of it's people and not the other way around.